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Post by jasonsorrell on Feb 27, 2011 8:15:00 GMT -6
I understand that my presence here, my effort to advertise to the good people of the Cult of Cthulhu that which I have to offer, has caused some undo stress for some. I consider myself a trader, asking that no one be burdened with my needs or giving to others that which has not been earned. As such, the following is not a charity, but rather a payment for my continued presence on this board.
What follows is an exploration of a Process for negotiating the gap between reality and our perception of reality. I am offering this on Sunday in order to conform with the protocols for this day being reserved for discussing the Work. For those of you who find value in this message, and would like to compensate me with your comments, please do so both here and on the blog itself. Thank you in advance for your attention.crawlingchaoscoc.blogspot.com/2011/02/process-belief-is-reality.html
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Post by hartnell on Feb 27, 2011 10:15:25 GMT -6
A = A?
Where did you get the second A?
Did you mean something like this:
A <--- Look!
If you stick your head in a bucket of water and keep it there, will you drown?
Have you tried it?
Is your view based on personal experience or fatalism? An educated guess, maybe? Is an educated guess reality? Or just a possibility?
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Post by hartnell on Feb 27, 2011 10:23:09 GMT -6
Belief is reality = en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation"Type 7 Awareness may be the Objective Awareness of the self and reality as unified whole. Here, we must say "may be" because this kind of Awareness is not present among men today." Oh really? www.nlpuniversitypress.com/html3/StSy60.htmlSystem"One of the core principles of NLP is that 'life' and 'mind' are 'systemic' processes. That is, processes that take place within a human being and between human beings and their environment are systemic. Our bodies, our societies, and our universe form an ecology of complex systems and subsystems all of which interact with and mutually influence each other. It is not possible to completely isolate any part of the system from the rest of the system"
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Post by jasonsorrell on Feb 27, 2011 11:06:57 GMT -6
A = A? Where did you get the second A? Did you mean something like this: A <--- Look! I am borrowing this from Aristotle, who I think cribbed it from Plato. I know it might be a bit outdated for you, Shawn, but I dig the classics. It represents a thing being itself. If you stick your head in a bucket of water and keep it there, will you drown? Have you tried it? Is your view based on personal experience or fatalism? An educated guess, maybe? Is an educated guess reality? Or just a possibility? I almost drowned when I was four. I am an avid swimmer, and my own experience is that if I am under water for a certain period of time, the need to get my head above water and breath becomes absolute. Your experience may be different. Try the experiment, then get back to me.
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Post by jasonsorrell on Feb 27, 2011 11:11:51 GMT -6
Belief is reality = en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation"Type 7 Awareness may be the Objective Awareness of the self and reality as unified whole. Here, we must say "may be" because this kind of Awareness is not present among men today." Oh really? www.nlpuniversitypress.com/html3/StSy60.htmlSystem"One of the core principles of NLP is that 'life' and 'mind' are 'systemic' processes. That is, processes that take place within a human being and between human beings and their environment are systemic. Our bodies, our societies, and our universe form an ecology of complex systems and subsystems all of which interact with and mutually influence each other. It is not possible to completely isolate any part of the system from the rest of the system" Two different, though related systems of thought. If the example you provide from NLP is correct, then having the 7th type of Awareness I am relating from Gurdjieff's Work is within the grasp of anyone able to recognize that they are a part of a larger system and that they should strive to cease their delusion of being distinct. Ipsissimus for everyone!
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 27, 2011 12:14:27 GMT -6
Coincidentally, I had something to say about the above quote from Jason's blog before seeing that Hartnell already began to pick that bone clean.
I submit for examination and speculation that Man Number 7's behavior, actions, and results might be so far out of line with ordinary perceptions of reality that it could resemble insanity or nonsense [hello there, Azathoth]. If this is the case, then it will not provide any sort of proof to the masses that a Type 7 Man lives in their midst.
I suppose this argument all comes down to the word convince. How can a person, let alone a large group, be convinced of something if they can't understand it? Wouldn't that be like one dimensional people trying to appreciate a seven dimensional object... assuming that one dimensional people lived in their self-created one dimensional reality?
to put it a simpler way, how could a rocket scientist make a tribe of apes understand that he was above them consciously? The apes, being lower animals, can't grasp the heights of our hypothetical rocket scientist.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
p.s. Thanks for posting that link, Hartnell. I'll read it this afternoon.
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Post by hartnell on Feb 27, 2011 12:18:16 GMT -6
I am borrowing this from Aristotle, who I think cribbed it from Plato. I know it might be a bit outdated for you, Shawn, but I dig the classics. It represents a thing being itself. How did you get the same thing at two different spacial locations at the same time? A <--- Look! //Being pointed at, not being represented by itself -- it's just the thing itself.// A = A //Something being represented by something else.// So you had an experience of the need to breathe that was absolute... How do you know it was absolute and that interpretation was 100% accurate? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_Appraisal"When an event is perceived as negative in the primary appraisal process, then the person makes a further appraisal in regard to: * Harm: The assessment of the damage that the event has already caused. * Threat: Possible future damage that the event may cause." If it wasn't, you could have discovered you're able to do what this guy can. news.discovery.com/human/breath-holding-human.html Since we're talking about a memory, how do you know your memory is accurate and specific words haven't influenced the memory itself? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_of_automobile_destruction#Results_of_study_oneIs the subjective experience of recalling a memory a form of objective, absolute reality anyway? My entire point here is that you are using a subjective internal experience to provide evidence of an absolute, objective reality. There's no way for anyone to say that anyone would drown in that situation, we can only make educated guesses to guide our behavior in the most productive way. An evaluation of probability is a belief. More precisely, it's an expectation. It's common to express "Belief is reality" using these NLP presuppositions : "The map is not the territory." "People rely on their maps to navigate the territory." A quick note here: Good maps lead to good navigation. So paying attention and double checking ( test-operate-test-exist) your perceptions is always a good idea.
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Post by hartnell on Feb 27, 2011 12:22:40 GMT -6
Two different, though related systems of thought. What distinctions make them different? How are they related? ( Genuinely interested. ) If the example you provide from NLP is correct, then having the 7th type of Awareness I am relating from Gurdjieff's Work is within the grasp of anyone able to recognize that they are a part of a larger system and that they should strive to cease their delusion of being distinct. Ipsissimus for everyone! It's not that all the parts of a system are uniform -- they are interconnected amongst themselves and through this, they are part of a holistic system. There is variety and differentiation within a system, which comprises the coherent whole. Parts have interdependent interactions: like this conversation. I can't have this conversation without you.
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Post by jasonsorrell on Feb 27, 2011 12:57:24 GMT -6
I submit for examination and speculation that Man Number 7's behavior, actions, and results might be so far out of line with ordinary perceptions of reality that it could resemble insanity or nonsense [hello there, Azathoth]. If this is the case, then it will not provide any sort of proof to the masses that a Type 7 Man lives in their midst.
I suppose this argument all comes down to the word convince. How can a person, let alone a large group, be convinced of something if they can't understand it? Wouldn't that be like one dimensional people trying to appreciate a seven dimensional object... assuming that one dimensional people lived in their self-created one dimensional reality?
to put it a simpler way, how could a rocket scientist make a tribe of apes understand that he was above them consciously? The apes, being lower animals, can't grasp the heights of our hypothetical rocket scientist. As a student of the Fourth Way and cognizant of my relative position on the 1-7 Man scale, all I can do is observe and occasionally speculate. Are the questions you present for a Man 7 to answer, or an excuse for a Man 7 not to have to answer? Apes may not be able to grasp rocket science, but among men, there can be a discussion. Apes, however, would notice a distinction between themselves and the man, and observe that the man has certain powers that they lack as apes even if those powers are outside their understanding. The ape-analogy, however, is moot. I would submit that what we are talking about are different scales of Awareness that are within the potential of men. We are comparing types of men and Awareness in contrast to other types of men and Awareness. We are not comparing rocks to hamsters. If the answers are not within your grasp, that is understandable. We are all students, are we not?
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Post by hartnell on Feb 27, 2011 13:05:05 GMT -6
Student-explorers. If nobody knows what 7th is like, somebody's going to have to go there.
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Post by nyrlthtp on Feb 27, 2011 13:27:33 GMT -6
I have not yet read the sermon about which this serves for discussion. I am merely responding to Mr. Hartnell's assertion here re the sermon and the comment on NLP. there is a difference between what is being claimed as awareness (of men today as to the 'unified whole of the self and reality') and knowledge as to process and its continuity such that it is 'not possible to completely isolate any part of the system from the rest of the system'. I can, regarding only this comparison, see a difference between ontological awareness and abstracted knowledge such that these may be differentiated between these two compared examples. in modern scientific exploration there is an attempt to artificially construct a 'control' whereby that which is part of the holistic process but otherwise unimpinged by the phenomenon under scrutiny might be compared so as to bring it to the foreground of thought and thereby understand it more concretely. these gradations of apparency and proximity are real, regardless of the integritous character of the whole as such. {EDIT - please see this elaboration.}
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Post by hartnell on Feb 27, 2011 13:49:57 GMT -6
I'm aware of being a part of a larger system. I see it right in front of my eyes.
Parts of a system don't have to touch, they only have to be connected in some way in which they can influence each other. Two people having a conversation is an example.
I get the feeling that I've missed something. If I have, it's my bad.
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 27, 2011 16:10:58 GMT -6
Between Men Numbers 1, 2, 3 and Man Number 7, I see the difference as apes compared to astronauts (sounds catchier than rocket scientist). Between Men Number 4 and Man Number 7, I see it as apples compared to oranges. Between Man Number 5 and Man Number 7... lemons to limes. While Man Number 6 is merely a Man Number 7 in training... he only needs to keep listening to what the Ancient Ones whisper.
How can non-practitioners of The Great Work even begin to comprehend a fraction of God's repulsive visage?
The nature of their struggles are different. If those same struggles are on equal footing between student and teacher, then I don't believe the teacher is that far from the student regarding The Work. For a teacher to become Master, he must be struggling on a totally different Octave than his students and an Octave similar to his disciples.
Yes, that will frequently be the case for Men (and Women, of course) Number 4 and higher.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by jasonsorrell on Feb 27, 2011 16:34:08 GMT -6
Between Men Numbers 1, 2, 3 and Man Number 7, I see the difference as apes compared to astronauts (sounds catchier than rocket scientist). Between Men Number 4 and Man Number 7, I see it as apples compared to oranges. Between Man Number 5 and Man Number 7... lemons to limes. While Man Number 6 is merely a Man Number 7 in training... he only needs to keep listening to what the Ancient Ones whisper.
How can non-practitioners of The Great Work even begin to comprehend a fraction of God's repulsive visage? It seems we are talking about two different subjects. In the examples that I have been providing, I have been referring to and attempting as best I can to follow the Work of Gurdjieff. His description of this Work is that these stages in development of Awareness, Men 1-7, are all within the potential of men. His writing, and the observations of his students, lend a convincing argument to his theories on Awareness and the advantages of the application of his Process. No such evidence exists for your "Great Work". None. Once again, I cannot consider your position, though understanding is ever more evident. You and I are attempting to compare apples like that of Newton and Eden to, well, your bananas, and this has been a mistake. I will stick to the apple, and you can have your bananas.
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Post by herbert on Feb 27, 2011 19:17:14 GMT -6
It seems we are talking about two different subjects. In the examples that I have been providing, I have been referring to and attempting as best I can to follow the Work of Gurdjieff. His description of this Work is that these stages in development of Awareness, Men 1-7, are all within the potential of men. His writing, and the observations of his students, lend a convincing argument to his theories on Awareness and the advantages of the application of his Process. No such evidence exists for your "Great Work". None. Once again, I cannot consider your position, though understanding is ever more evident. You and I are attempting to compare apples like that of Newton and Eden to, well, your bananas, and this has been a mistake. I will stick to the apple, and you can have your bananas. yeah that's the right stuff guy. i know what you are writing is true, because it is demonstrated by cosmoses in the law of octaves. in the ray of creation there are 7 cosmoses; -the small cosmos represents the subconscious mind or a person that is completely self considering. the small cosmos is the most mechanical and is thee birth place of all thing physical. - the tritocosmos represents the primitive mind or a person that is unaware for the most part (randomly experincing brief periods of awakening). the tritocosm is the second (and central)layer of the three part expression of consciousness. it is central because all things from the small cosmos that are possible are realized here. this is emotional man. -the mesocosmos represents the global mind or a person who achieved transpersonal consciousness. this layer extends from the intellectual center into the higher intellectual center and is the first shock. people are effected equally by event happening on this level (and the small cosmos). if there is a storm, epidemic, car crash, or a promotion at work; we are directly affected by them. the small cosmos acts the same way. - the duetrocosmos represents the symbolic mind (solar) or a person who is achieved abstract consciousness. this person can reason with allegorical concepts and abstract thinking. which is why it was called the psychic dimension and is represted by the solar system (astrology). all things from the tritocosm that are possible are realized here. -the macrocosmos which is followed by ayocosmos, and the finally protocosmos deal with external states of consciousness. i don't think it is called for to get into. i think it is pretty cool to see someone understands this stuff like i was taught it. mr. funny guy, you are pretty sharp. keeep the goods coming.
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 27, 2011 20:41:33 GMT -6
Jason, I don't think it's working out. You've made your sales pitch. You've conveniently explained your understanding to us by simply leading by example. You've repeatedly disregarded my perspective without any evidence to support those claims. You've made it clear that you don't want to work with the Cult of Cthulhu; nor do you want to be taught by me. Where exactly does that leave us, brother?
As much as I've enjoyed the opportunity to re-phrase my knowledge to everyone watching this thread, your being here serves no further purpose, save distraction. I think it's best if you leave our discussion boards... assuming you keep marching along this road.
Herbert, I'm not sure what your deal is, but at the moment you strike me as another Jason puppet.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by herbert on Feb 27, 2011 20:56:49 GMT -6
Jason, I don't think it's working out. You've made your sales pitch. You've conveniently explained your understanding to us by simply leading by example. You've repeatedly disregarded my perspective without any evidence to support those claims. You've made it clear that you don't want to work with the Cult of Cthulhu; nor do you want to be taught by me. Where exactly does that leave us, brother?
As much as I've enjoyed the opportunity to re-phrase my knowledge to everyone watching this thread, your being here serves no further purpose, save distraction. I think it's best if you leave our discussion boards... assuming you keep marching along this road.
Herbert, I'm not sure what your deal is, but at the moment you strike me as another Jason puppet.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
Venger As'Nas Satanis (hoping that is ok), not sure what a jason puppet is. i'm here to observe another 4th way school. i'm trying to figure out what your deal is, he is interrupting G correctly.. is that somehow wrong?
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Post by I AM the Way on Feb 27, 2011 21:56:51 GMT -6
Capitalize it and we're good to go. I'll give you 24 hours to modify the offending post. Thanks for your cooperation.
I have no idea who you are or why you are here without a proper introduction. You seemed to appear before us at the exact time Jason Sorrell returned. Jason used a puppet account named Charles something or other for the first 24 hours of his return, in addition to his main account. Seemed reasonable to assume that Herbert was another extension of Jason.
If you're legit, then please post an intro in the appropriate board.
You are quite right, he is interrupting G correctly.
Misinterpreting might be a better word for it. And if he desires to interfere with this Fourth Way School, then Jason has come to the wrong Cult.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by herbert on Feb 27, 2011 22:19:01 GMT -6
Capitalize it and we're good to go. I'll give you 24 hours to modify the offending post. Thanks for your cooperation.I have no idea who you are or why you are here without a proper introduction. You seemed to appear before us at the exact time Jason Sorrell returned. Jason used a puppet account named Charles something or other for the first 24 hours of his return, in addition to his main account. Seemed reasonable to assume that Herbert was another extension of Jason.
If you're legit, then please post an intro in the appropriate board. You are quite right, he is interrupting G correctly.
Misinterpreting might be a better word for it. And if he desires to interfere with this Fourth Way School, then Jason has come to the wrong Cult.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
ok Venger As'Nas Satanis, is that better? If you look you will see i've been here for a while now. if you don't trust that i am sure you can probably compare ip addresses. if my appearence here seems sudden look to recent increase in intelligent convo. btw, how can you be misinterpreting something you are interpreting correctly? you are a tricky guy.
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Post by jasonsorrell on Feb 28, 2011 12:54:53 GMT -6
Jason, I don't think it's working out. You've made your sales pitch. You've conveniently explained your understanding to us by simply leading by example. You've repeatedly disregarded my perspective without any evidence to support those claims. You've made it clear that you don't want to work with the Cult of Cthulhu; nor do you want to be taught by me. Where exactly does that leave us, brother?
As much as I've enjoyed the opportunity to re-phrase my knowledge to everyone watching this thread, your being here serves no further purpose, save distraction. I think it's best if you leave our discussion boards... assuming you keep marching along this road.
I disagree. This is working out splendidly, and I thank you for the opportunity to be here. As you pointed-out and I have often confirmed, this is an advertising campaign. In order to be successful, an advertising campaign must be sustained. There is a clear interest in what I have to offer demonstrated by the members of this forum. My presentation has resulted in a flurry of activity and I have even been asked to comment on an unrelated thread or two. Whether they agree or disagree, my messages are promoting thought and discourse, something I was under the impression was encouraged here. I have made it clear that I do not agree with you. Is my opposing view-point really a threat to the Ipsissumus? What I have also made clear is that I am willing to engage in an exchange with any member of the Cult of Cthulhu, for mutual benefit... yourself included. Where does this leave us? It leaves us exactly where we were when I began my advertising campaign. I am just a guy with something to offer who recognizes a market interested in what that is. You've read through the threads, and you see that demonstrated. However, I recognize that this is your house, and if alternative view-points are not to be tolerated in your house, then say so, and I will leave. If my message is somehow a threat to your own, and you cannot permit my presence and maintain your sense of control, simply say so, and I will close my account. Or ban me, again, without any further public statement. Perhaps no one will notice. If this is to be my last post here, ladies and gentlemen of the Cult of Cthulhu, and you wish to continue to indulge in my wares, feel free to email me at sorrellart@hotmail.com. I thank you all for your kindness, encouragement, and welcome acceptance of my presence among you these last few days, and I hope this is not the end. If, however, your leader feels my presence chafes him so sorely, I will need to seek communities where the administrators are made of more durable stuff.
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Post by nyrlthtp on Feb 28, 2011 14:25:47 GMT -6
...It's common to express "Belief is reality" using these NLP presuppositions: "The map is not the territory." "People rely on their maps to navigate the territory." ...Good maps lead to good navigation. So paying attention and double checking ( test-operate-test-exist) your perceptions is always a good idea. substituting by symbolism and representation M(x) (a mapping of location 'x') for P(x), within our formula, this means that as M(x) approximates R(x), we call it a 'good map'. we do not presume that M(x) = R(x) in an absolute sense, since our interests are particular to the type of map generated. if it is a topographical map we may presume that the map-maker's interests were terrain morphology centered. if they are keyed to streets and points of civilization interests then we may presume that navigating amongst human cultural locales was the interest. belief is about a thing and necessarily reduces it to principles or abstractions. for this reason it is obvious that 'belief is not reality' in a literal sense. where it obtains, as has been commented, is where belief intersects with experience and may produce a placebo or conditioning effect. {The two quotations, one from Jason and one from an NLP source, are derived from} Two different, though related systems of thought. What distinctions make them different? How are they related? ( Genuinely interested. ) ...the parts of a system are uniform -- they are interconnected amongst themselves and through this, they are part of a holistic system. There is variety and differentiation within a system, which comprises the coherent whole. Parts have interdependent interactions.... the first relates to something holistic, whilst the latter relates to something cumulative and related by extension. one might call the first at points mystical, as i have explained previously. this ties into astrological models rather easily, as well as Asian and other models of unification of the 'microcosm' and the 'macrocosm'. without much modification or explication, this may readily be applied within magic, as by alchemists.
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Post by nyrlthtp on Feb 28, 2011 15:32:41 GMT -6
The struggle to refine and/or eliminate our mechanical filters is no easy task and can trigger emotional responses that are difficult to wade through. Most people turn back, or fall back to sleep, at this point, for it is too against what we have been programmed into. They "feel better" about themselves, which is then verified by the sleepers around them, when they allow the filter to determine the reality that they indulge in, failing to recognize they have just fallen back to sleep. elimination of filtration is mystical, suicidal, or science fiction. if we could rely upon the one-to-one correspondence of irritation in relation to advancement then presumably we would become ascetics or masochists. again, these are simplistic methodologies of evaluation or assessment. unworkable long term. I do not see anyone attempting to refine them in reply to me, though i will probably do it for you at some point. I have already improved immeasurably upon Gurdjieff, though hero-worship being what it is, his dogma will be retained. I submit for examination and speculation that Man Number 7's behavior, actions, and results might be so far out of line with ordinary perceptions of reality that it could resemble insanity or nonsense.... If this is the case, then it will not provide any sort of proof to the masses that a Type 7 Man lives in their midst. ... we are never provided with any description of 'proof' which the Ipsissimus, or which Jason, or which you would find convincing. the Old Goalposts Game commences. it allows speculative exaltation of projective authority in a manner that keeps the rubes guessing and never arrives at any advancement whatever. {Our} Gurdjieff Foundation study group... ...{include members who claim to} have studied with students that were taught by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky.... {and that they find} themselves struggling with some of the same daily obstacles to awakening that I do.... consider the implications of this carefully. it is to what i referred when i said that i wrote: note the focus here on achieving desires, and this can have strictly short-term and perceptual character. it sets the stage for, sows the seed of, self-delusion. this is why no masters ever seem to come from the Crazy Wisdom streams (they don't embrace science well enough). they are isthmuses of fantasy, self-aggrandizing at the onset and more often than not propping up the prior masters as glories. the Way of Religion persists, sullying their overall output. absorption of ideologies is evident. a method for evaluating the application of these ideologies is absent, or at best, obscured and subjectivist. Where, then, do these people with years of experience, knowledge, application, dedication, and understanding of the Fourth Way fall on the scale? And if these individuals with 30+ years of study aren't more than a Man 4, maybe (probably not) a Man 5, then how would anyone else convince me that they are something higher than these Gurdjieff Foundation members, especially when they have several years less of experience and have never attended a Fourth Way School? at this point you run into the tenure effect of mysticism and social aspiration. evaluation of results is typically left behind, overwhelmed by a desire to attain prestige, ladder-climb, and be accepted as 'part of the elite'. do not expect this to change any time soon. you've been seeing me criticize this for months within this cult's site, and little if any response has been forthcoming concerning it. ...the only way I would be convinced that someone is even close to a Man 6, let alone a Man 7, is from the overall "feeling" I get from the person...their energy field...their aura...whatever you want to call it. It would be obviously different, and even if I couldn't understand why or how, I would be able to recognize the shift in my paradigm from their mere presence in my immediate vicinity. more subjective taste evaluations. others, regardless of their 'attainment' would use their own criteria and the 'convincement' would only be as good as the "actual" development achieved, none of which has ever been confirmed by any kind of standard whatever. the only responsible manner of ascertaining this is by studying the wider field of mysticism, the psychology of consciousness, and attempting to come to a means of evaluating that doesn't depend at all on ideological litmus (what someone believes or knows), social influence (who someone knows), or personal charisma (how someone presents), instead estimating by some criteria what skills a person has in any of the 'awareness types' described by the Wayfarers. nobody, to my knowledge, has yet substantiated the array as related to progress, and i have adequately deconstructed it as a spectrum such that, without such support, those who have more than a faith-based approach ought to prop it up now with something realistic or abandon it as a badge-gaining projection scheme. " I'm the Ipsissimus!" "NO! I'm the Ipsissimus!", etc.
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Post by herbert on Feb 28, 2011 16:57:46 GMT -6
Capitalize it and we're good to go. I'll give you 24 hours to modify the offending post. Thanks for your cooperation.I have no idea who you are or why you are here without a proper introduction. You seemed to appear before us at the exact time Jason Sorrell returned. Jason used a puppet account named Charles something or other for the first 24 hours of his return, in addition to his main account. Seemed reasonable to assume that Herbert was another extension of Jason.
If you're legit, then please post an intro in the appropriate board. You are quite right, he is interrupting G correctly.
Misinterpreting might be a better word for it. And if he desires to interfere with this Fourth Way School, then Jason has come to the wrong Cult.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
so eh... Venger As'Nas Satanis, now that we are more acquainted are you gonna explain how that guy was interpreting G incorrectly? please for the sake of me not getting the wrong idea, provide quotes & references. i would likee to see a 4th way master's understanding of the work. thanks guy.
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Post by nyrlthtp on Feb 28, 2011 17:10:15 GMT -6
...No such evidence exists for {Ipsissimus Satanis'} "Great Work". None.... please supply samples of what you could regard as evidence you would evaluate as qualifying. have you ever found such evidence from anyone else? from yourself?
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 1, 2011 1:47:08 GMT -6
Hey look, I get to ban hastur. Sweet!
I wouldn't say splendidly. But it hasn't been terrible either. In fact, I kind of enjoy you being here, Jason. I'm not threatened, but my reservations about your stay here are these...
1. You occasionally have a bad attitude. It shows glaringly in the tone of your posts. Not all, but many. This piss poor attitude is endemic of flawed crystallization. The only cure for that is to shatter oneself in order to re-crystallize.
2. From my perspective, you have a few misinterpretations of the Fourth Way which could confuse people or derail their learning if you were to keep posting 4th Way material regularly. Of course, I could correct any wrong interpretations (which is useful) but the distraction may outweigh the benefits.
3. I would have you here in a more void-like frame of mind. Perhaps it's too soon since the Decree of Heresy? If the old Jason was present (not necessarily the Priest of R'lyeh Ego Diabolus), then I believe that everything would be different: real progress could be made.
No such evidence exists for your "Great Work". None. Once again, I cannot consider your position, though understanding is ever more evident.
I'm boiling it down to just those three sentences. Focus on those and you will have your answer.
In the first and second sentences we have blatant impertinence rooted in negativity. Only blindness, ignorance, or lies could account for finding no such evidence for my Great Work. Assuming, of course, that one is already familiar with our emerald religion, as Jason is.
The Cult of Cthulhu itself and everything it stands for is a testament to achieving higher states of consciousness, Awakening the self. For those who have been around for at least a few weeks, my understanding of The Great Work is self-evident. Please read various posts here, as well as, my writing throughout the CoC website.
The fact that Jason cannot consider my position speaks volumes. He is too preoccupied with his own bias, his own agenda, and his own considerations to walk a single step in my shoes. Obviously, he is not alone because mankind is asleep. On a daily basis, millions of people fail to contemplate perspectives opposed to their own.
External consideration is a huge part of The Work. There are other techniques for not identifying, but none as sure. It is just as connected to what we do here in the Cult of Cthulhu as having the right attitude or putting one's faith in the teacher. Without external consideration we are not a cult, a brotherhood, nor a school. We would remain nothing by internal considering alone.
I could go into detail regarding my disagreement with Jason's blog post, but first I'll allow him to address Nagasiva's questions.
I have no problem being challenged, but I will not tolerate continual disrespect. Let all who read this know that for certain. This forum isn't solely for Work purposes; however, that is the lion's share of our business... or at least it should be.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by jasonsorrell on Mar 1, 2011 9:25:54 GMT -6
Jason, I don't think it's working out... I think it's best if you leave our discussion boards...
In fact, I kind of enjoy you being here, Jason.
Your unconscious knack for reversing or contradicting yourself is always stunning... mainly because you are so blatantly unaware of it. As it works in my favor for the moment, thank you for your recognition that forcibly removing me would set a poor example for the other members of this forum and kudos for still having the sense of self-preservation that allowed you to recognize how detrimental to your argument it would have been if your response was "I don't like what he is saying so I am kicking him out of my sandbox". To the point that you wish the "old" Jason would return... The "old" Jason was lead here by false pretenses on your part. The ideals I was sold upon are the same ones you have abandoned; self-development, the Fourth Way, and Satanism. Your current view on Satanism is well expressed as of late in this and other forums. We have different interpretations of the Fourth Way, and your freely admit that your "Great Work" is not the Work of Gurdjieff. As to self-development, how does one develop then self when the paradigm aimed for is one of subservience to you? No matter what efforts these others make, if they are true to your vision than reaching your level is an impossibility... they reach a glass-ceiling just below you. Subservience to you is mandatory, regardless of your students development. The concepts of being a peer, equality, or even having a greater understanding than you is foreign to your stated end. You have been the catalyst, through your reversal on what you originally pitched to us, that lead to our division. Greater understanding and experience is what you see before you in my example today. You helped create the very thing your cannot understand and find dangerous to your paradigm. Take credit! I had to see a negative example before I could fully appreciate a positive. I will do my best to remain respectful, but not at the cost of being honest. When your opinion is worth consideration, I will take it into account. I am not here for you, however. I am here for myself, and those in your house that have expressed a desire for my presence and a willingness to trade with me. That said, my advertising campaign and offering an alternative viewpoint and interpretation to the Work continues. My next Sunday Sermon is ready to go, and I should have something new to advertise shortly. I don't want to overdo it.
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Post by herbert on Mar 1, 2011 10:43:50 GMT -6
No such evidence exists for your "Great Work". None. Once again, I cannot consider your position, though understanding is ever more evident.I'm boiling it down to just those three sentences. Focus on those and you will have your answer.
In the first and second sentences we have blatant impertinence rooted in negativity. Only blindness, ignorance, or lies could account for finding no such evidence for my Great Work. Assuming, of course, that one is already familiar with our emerald religion, as Jason is.
The Cult of Cthulhu itself and everything it stands for is a testament to achieving higher states of consciousness, Awakening the self. For those who have been around for at least a few weeks, my understanding of The Great Work is self-evident. Please read various posts here, as well as, my writing throughout the CoC website.
The fact that Jason cannot consider my position speaks volumes. He is too preoccupied with his own bias, his own agenda, and his own considerations to walk a single step in my shoes. Obviously, he is not alone because mankind is asleep. On a daily basis, millions of people fail to contemplate perspectives opposed to their own.
External consideration is a huge part of The Work. There are other techniques for not identifying, but none as sure. It is just as connected to what we do here in the Cult of Cthulhu as having the right attitude or putting one's faith in the teacher. Without external consideration we are not a cult, a brotherhood, nor a school. We would remain nothing by internal considering alone.
I could go into detail regarding my disagreement with Jason's blog post, but first I'll allow him to address Nagasiva's questions.
I have no problem being challenged, but I will not tolerate continual disrespect. Let all who read this know that for certain. This forum isn't solely for Work purposes; however, that is the lion's share of our business... or at least it should be.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
maybe we don't understand each other guy. i wasn't seeking answers about your work. i fail to understand why you would see anything negative in my post to you. i simply wanted to see where the other guy is wrong. i posted up the things i know are fact within G's system in a prior post. i will repost them for your benefit. yeah that's the right stuff guy. i know what you are writing is true, because it is demonstrated by cosmoses in the law of octaves. in the ray of creation there are 7 cosmoses; -the small cosmos represents the subconscious mind or a person that is completely self considering. the small cosmos is the most mechanical and is thee birth place of all thing physical. - the tritocosmos represents the primitive mind or a person that is unaware for the most part (randomly experincing brief periods of awakening). the tritocosm is the second (and central)layer of the three part expression of consciousness. it is central because all things from the small cosmos that are possible are realized here. this is emotional man. -the mesocosmos represents the global mind or a person who achieved transpersonal consciousness. this layer extends from the intellectual center into the higher intellectual center and is the first shock. people are effected equally by event happening on this level (and the small cosmos). if there is a storm, epidemic, car crash, or a promotion at work; we are directly affected by them. the small cosmos acts the same way. - the duetrocosmos represents the symbolic mind (solar) or a person who is achieved abstract consciousness. this person can reason with allegorical concepts and abstract thinking. which is why it was called the psychic dimension and is represted by the solar system (astrology). all things from the tritocosm that are possible are realized here. -the macrocosmos which is followed by ayocosmos, and the finally protocosmos deal with external states of consciousness. i don't think it is called for to get into. i think it is pretty cool to see someone understands this stuff like i was taught it. mr. funny guy, you are pretty sharp. keeep the goods coming. now you can see why i would ask you explain it. this is very basic 4th way understanding, any person would know that. so i am sure given your elevated consciousness, you do. let me break it down to you like this guy; i will ask questions about your system in time, but right now i would like to see why it wasn't a correct interpretation of G... Thanks for throwing me a rope for me pal!
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 1, 2011 12:09:04 GMT -6
Really? I couldn't have simply meant that while I somewhat like your presence here, it may cause more problems than it resolves. Mixed feelings about a subject are too far out of the realm of possibility? Your thinking is very black and white or to put it in 4th Way terminology... formatory.
False pretenses? Not really. The combination of self-development, the Fourth Way, and Satanism (true Satanism, not that Modern Satanism drivel) is the reason why many of us are here. It's what I and the Cthulhu Cult are all about. If I'm so opposed to those things, then why bother with us at all? You've made your advertisement pitch... what else keeps you here except trying to obstruct my Work? Speaking of which...
My Work is not Gurdjieff's Work in the way that no man can put his hand in the same river twice. The stream is constantly moving, always shifting... subtle at times but fluctuation is constant. I am not an identical clone of Gurdjieff. I must be my own person, my own Master with a teaching style best suited towards my unique essence and approach.
Having said that, my Work is extremely similar to the essence of what Gurdjieff taught. The fundamental divergence is something that you've created in your own mind because your ego is attached to the subjective truth that Venger As'Nas Satanis is chock full of poppycock.
Subservient to me? Absolutely not. If a long-established, compatible, and aesthetically congruent Man Number 7 appeared tonight, then I would do whatever I had to in order to become his student. I don't want Cultists to serve me, kiss my ass, or feel they are beneath me. I would love for others to be on my level. That is a moment I welcome with open arms. In fact, I doubt that I could Ascend alone.
Am I your Devil, Jason? Your scapegoat? Your Satan?
If you saw this reversal in me and the Cult of Cthulhu, then why start a new Grotto opposed to just a few elements within this school instead of confronting me with your opinions like a man? Why sneak behind my back? Is it because you only realized how deluded and terrible I was after you were kicked out? Many have come to me since last November with the phrase "sour grapes" upon their lips, in reference to you.
As you are right now, the Cult of Cthulhu can do nothing for you, Jason. If other Cultists still desire your presence, then I hope they will step forward on your behalf. I will not judge them, but wish to hear their reasoning for keeping an ungrateful and arrogant ex-student around these boards. Or perhaps I've mis-characterized you...?
Obviously, we do not fully understand each other. I did as you requested. Am I the only one who finds Herbert tiresome?
Really? Ok, guy, why don't you find me some passage in Gurdjieff's teaching where he says that internal considering is good and external considering is bad.
Any moron? Why did I ever think you were a Jason puppet? You've just destroyed any credibility or good will you had, Herbert. More and more, you strike me as a troll. This is your first and last warning. Read our forum guidelines and rules if you wish to continue being here.
As for the information you posted, it has precious little to do with practical Fourth Way knowledge. You would do well to leave that stuff alone in favor of Self-Remembering. I'm not here to audition for your approval. See what we're about, make your choice, and then either join this Conscious School or leave quietly.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by herbert on Mar 1, 2011 12:39:53 GMT -6
Obviously, we do not fully understand each other. I did as you requested. Am I the only one who finds Herbert tiresome? Really? Ok, guy, why don't you find me some passage in Gurdjieff's teaching where he says that internal considering is good and external considering is bad. Any moron? Why did I ever think you were a Jason puppet? You've just destroyed any credibility or good will you had, Herbert. More and more, you strike me as a troll. This is your first and last warning. Read our forum guidelines and rules if you wish to continue being here.
As for the information you posted, it has precious little to do with practical Fourth Way knowledge. You would do well to leave that stuff alone in favor of Self-Remembering. I'm not here to audition for your approval. See what we're about, make your choice, and then either join this Conscious School or leave quietly.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
so Venger As'Nas Satanis for what am i being warned? the word moron? tell you what i'll replace it in my original post with person. why do you find me tiresome? i've asked for something specific and you sir, refuse to answer it. so you know at no point did i say internal good / external bad. in fact G would probably tell you to have a healthy balance of both. self-remembering is but one tool in a tool box full in the 4th way. the information i posted here is very practical and extremely important to even be able to begin self-remembering. i don't have to tell you that though, you know it is true. this quote of G above demonstrates the point of needing an understanding the 7 cosmoses. a person must understand the different vectors of thought. simply self-remembering is pointless without any understanding of what you are remembering. one last quote for you from G, and hopefully you will stop being negative toward me. i simply asked why. get it?
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 1, 2011 14:03:03 GMT -6
Your attitude. You are creating disharmony. I and others have found your posts to be disrespectful. That's why I warned you. How about telling me why you're really here? Where did you hear about the Cult of Cthulhu? What was your impression of us before you arrived at the website... before you started posting?
Because you keep asking me for something which I've already given.
See what I mean?
How?
I highly doubt it since human beings are constantly considering themselves and only their own mechanical bull shit. The Work provides us with something which we can struggle against, something to Work towards; not to keep doing the same stuff we do all the time but to also be mindful of the tritocosmos.
No, it isn't "very practical and extremely important". No, I don't know it is true. If you think memorizing stuff which Gurdjieff called the 5th cosmos and what that represents will aid you in Awakening, then you are sorely mistaken. There's a difference between knowing and understanding. It's called being.
At best, such things provide a little anecdotal background. Some of Gurdjieff's teaching is theoretical. Just like when I write about the Emerald Kingdom. How can you prove where the "holy cosmos" fits onto the Ray of Creation? You can't. None of us can! We fill in the gaps with aesthetics... with personal reality nodes. That's why I created this religion. Lovecraft's Mythos has always been a tremendous influence upon me. I use Cthulhuism and Yog-Sothothery to explain the unexplainable.
I agree that Self-Remembering is not the only tool, but it might be the most crucial. Go back and re-read through this thread. If you can't see any error on your part, then you need to be educated in effective communication, Herbert.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Ipsissimus Cult of Cthulhu
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