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Post by sin on Mar 14, 2009 7:38:08 GMT -6
Apologist 1, I must ask:
You keep mentioning the rape aspect, is it your personal sense of morality - that you press on in this area? Do you not recognize the philosophical value of exploring advocating such ideas? How can you determine if you personally find this 'right' or 'wrong' if you don't examine it?
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Post by amble on Mar 14, 2009 9:15:15 GMT -6
Surely the reason we are all here is to question ourselves, our beliefs, our understandings and our morality. The reason we are spending so much time discussing issues like this is to provoke each other into debate. Apologist1, can i ask why you feel the need to coerce us into believing what you believe? The point of these forums is to broaden everyone's ideas and understandings, and you seem to be the only one unwilling to join in on that aspect. If you are so rigid and steadfast in your convictions then surely you must understand that we might also be equally steadfast about certain things, and that no amount of name calling will make us think "oh shit, he's right". Resorting to attacking the person instead of the argument only belittles your own words, and shows just how interested you are in learning, as opposed to beating your theories into the heads of others.
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Madguten
Moderator
CoC forum moderator
Woe, to he who hears the howling
Posts: 2,785
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Post by Madguten on Mar 14, 2009 11:57:02 GMT -6
I totally understand that sometimes discussions make one mad and stuff, but lets keep the talk civilized. No character attacks please. Just wanted to mention that.
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Mar 14, 2009 19:52:08 GMT -6
Yeah I think apologist1 is here for a reason.. maybe he wants us to tell him WHY he should join.. I mean, he wants something. Apologist, if you don't like the level of our discussions, then why communicate with us? There must be SOMETHING about us that you like, otherwise, why not have such discussions on mysatan.ning.com/ too? Why us? I KNOW you like us for some reason.. are we on to something? You dont HAVE to believe in Cthulhu in a literal sense to join, just at least symbolicly. Please share your thoughts.. and lets keep this civil..
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Post by jmsn72 on Mar 14, 2009 21:48:20 GMT -6
As advances are made in our understanding, previous theories can be changed in light of new evidence. By definition, change is part of the scientific process. This I believe is true.Science cant be all that wrong considering where we are now.However,science has of yet to truly grasp the nature of consciousness.You may or scientist may discover one day that centuries of mysticism had some degree of truth. I know your views of science and god for the most part.It seems gods have no place but facts and verifiable truths do to you.I am curious as to what you believe about magic or the ability to manipulate reality.Science has not disproved magic?Do you think it exist or is it a crock of baloney?Care you to discover it and be a pioneer of sorts of condemn it due to a lack of understanding?
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Post by sin on Mar 17, 2009 9:57:27 GMT -6
I think thought-processes evolve. When I was a teenager, I was a pretty hard atheist. As I got older, acquired more knowledge and understanding - I'm a soft atheist, a Strong Agnostic. I recognize that placing absolutes in abstract ideas limits understanding vs. fosters it. I sill love my hard science, and skeptical inquiry. By trying to disprove a thing, you might actually prove it.
Magic is so abstract - how you and I define it may be entirely different concepts, yet the commonality is that we believe in it.
Magic varies from culture to culture - and in our modern technological culture, we can re-define it as we please to meet our needs.
Let me ask you this Apologist 1, do you believe psychology is a science?
Do you not recognize the power of will? If I can influence you by shear will, this is magic in practical application. If I utilize magic in the abstract on myself, this is just psychology in action.
If these 'actions' cause an effect, magic has the power to manipulate people, places and things (to include on what is now referred to as a 'quantum level'). You can change the label of 'magic' to 'psychology' and it makes little difference to me - its the romanticism involved, the theatrics which aids in self-applying a delusion.
Wrap your head around that for a minute. Then tell me again how science has not substantiated magic? Magic is very human, and provable.
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Post by jmsn72 on Mar 17, 2009 12:57:50 GMT -6
The problem with the idea of will when it comes to psychology is the same as defining magic.Just as there are many ways of practice and definition to magic,there are many branches of psychology.Not all of them see the will as the driving force.
I suppose in some respects science is not absolute either ,much like magic isn't.
As for magic,I never used the idea of will to achieve results.I always viewed magic as more mechanical and focused on cognitive process instead of the idea of will to get results.I highly doubt I'd be able to explain cognitive psychology or its aspect anywhere near as clearly as apologist1 could (to that I am certain.They are quite knowledgeable and eloquent) Personally I do not recognize any such thing as will existing.
The mind as I see it is a collection of parts and when they operate with a certain harmony,things occur that I want to occur.No idea how or why it works,just know that it does and that thoughtlessness or will were never really necessary.Decisions are wants can simply be reactionary responses to my environment,not my true will.Doesn't make the magic work any less though.What some people or most people see as their will can be nothing more than a strong want which is a reaction to some external stressor...then one has to ask who's will is really at work,the magicican's or some external occurrence out of the magicians control that gave the magician a push or nudge?
I admit to being a complacent simpleton who could care less about expanding my knowledge (it is nothing I am proud of,things just took a steep dive in the past few years)most of the time but the idea of will in my opinion is illusory at best.The idea of a universal will seems less absurd when on a larger scale we see the nature of things.But if there were an individual or free will,I think we'd have to find someway to create it because I doubt we humans or any animal for that matter is born with one.
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Post by sin on Mar 17, 2009 14:15:35 GMT -6
Yes, there are several branches of psychology, and I recognize that there are no absolutes in this field - it's a 'best guess' based on observations of behavior. Do you side with Freud or Jung? *lol*
At any rate, as I said - we all would probably define it differently, but the commonality is that we believe in the power of magic.
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Post by sin on Mar 17, 2009 14:17:26 GMT -6
This was a recent post on a yahoogroup I belong to:
Re: thoughtbomb on archetypes
"Contemporary man is blind to the fact that, with all his rationality and efficiency, he is possed by 'powers' that are normally beyond his control. His ghosts and gods have not disappeared at all; they have merely got new names." - C.G. Jung
Blind to the fact? Possession? Jung is off his rocker with this one, at least how he chose to communicate the idea.
Man, in all his efficiency and rationale would recognize that he creates his ghosts and gods to serve him, to serve his purpose. Just as a need changes, so does it's face.
As for possession, clearly he didn't fully grasp the human condition. Man is not possessed by this gift, but it is an inherent ability. There is a clear and distinct difference between 'possession' and 'ability'. Possession suggests something foreign which has taken hold. Ability, is something that man holds - and uses when it's recognized.
Jung, jung, jung - silly silly man."
Sin
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 17, 2009 14:46:50 GMT -6
it's been a really long day, so i'm much too exhausted to defend or argue my position at the moment... however, i would definitely side with Jung. i think his quote is more or less accurate... from my perspective.
VS
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Post by jmsn72 on Mar 17, 2009 18:52:17 GMT -6
Yes, there are several branches of psychology, and I recognize that there are no absolutes in this field - it's a 'best guess' based on observations of behavior. Do you side with Freud or Jung? *lol* At any rate, as I said - we all would probably define it differently, but the commonality is that we believe in the power of magic. I believe Freud was a little more attuned with reality than Jung was. What I admire about Jung was that his views are very artistic.They are a work of art ,his anima concept and animus being my favorite if only for the aesthetic appeal.I do not know how much of his work would hold up in a lab.Although it is artistic,the spiritual concepts seem a bit...untestable and far fetched IMO. Freud's approach is more material in my opinion and fear oriented which makes more sense since humans are animals. I never believed a spirit, essence could simply exist.I think if such things do come to exist,some work needs be done to bring it out,much like creating a servitor,and when the observer of it dies,it becomes merely a dead mechanism with no power,much like a dead god.I don't see the concept of spirit as animate like you and I.Demons,gods and the works what have you I think are like machines.The more programmed and complex,the more self aware it may seem but it is still a machine.But don't worry,part of me believes otherwise.Its all a matter of what fragments of me are more dominant at the moment.Sorry for the rant.
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Post by sin on Mar 18, 2009 7:52:21 GMT -6
[/b][/color][/quote] Well, when you are rested and have time - please elaborate. Why do you feel it's accurate?
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 19, 2009 14:19:43 GMT -6
"Contemporary man is blind to the fact that, with all his rationality and efficiency, he is possessed by 'powers' that are normally beyond his control. His ghosts and gods have not disappeared at all; they have merely got new names."
C.G. Jung
how can this be an accurate assessment of things? well, for starters, we are possessed by powers beyond our control. remember that we cannot do anything, everything merely happens to us. we don't decide to eat an apple or write a novel, universal forces command every aspect of our life. sure, universal forces include our own personal preferences, society, culture, blind luck, etc. however, these powers are more in control than one's Awakened self.
it is an extremely rare thing to do: to decide something for oneself, completely free from the forces which dominate us, and then put it into action. after all, how can someone that is asleep be liberated from powers outside man's influence.
VS
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Mar 19, 2009 14:22:03 GMT -6
"Contemporary man is blind to the fact that, with all his rationality and efficiency, he is possessed by 'powers' that are normally beyond his control. His ghosts and gods have not disappeared at all; they have merely got new names." C.G. Jung
how can this be an accurate assessment of things? well, for starters, we are possessed by powers beyond our control. remember that we cannot do anything, everything merely happens to us. we don't decide to eat an apple or write a novel, universal forces command every aspect of our life. sure, universal forces include our own personal preferences, society, culture, blind luck, etc. however, these powers are more in control than one's Awakened self.
it is an extremely rare thing to do: to decide something for oneself, completely free from the forces which dominate us, and then put it into action. after all, how can someone that is asleep be liberated from powers outside man's influence.
VS
Could it be, in fact, our hard-wired instinct that commands us to do so? Perhaps we run more on instinct than we know. Much how a cat will chase a laser pointer because it has the instinct to chase?
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Post by jmsn72 on Mar 19, 2009 23:03:56 GMT -6
"Contemporary man is blind to the fact that, with all his rationality and efficiency, he is possessed by 'powers' that are normally beyond his control. His ghosts and gods have not disappeared at all; they have merely got new names." C.G. Jung
how can this be an accurate assessment of things? well, for starters, we are possessed by powers beyond our control. remember that we cannot do anything, everything merely happens to us. we don't decide to eat an apple or write a novel, universal forces command every aspect of our life. sure, universal forces include our own personal preferences, society, culture, blind luck, etc. however, these powers are more in control than one's Awakened self.
it is an extremely rare thing to do: to decide something for oneself, completely free from the forces which dominate us, and then put it into action. after all, how can someone that is asleep be liberated from powers outside man's influence.
VS
Could it be, in fact, our hard-wired instinct that commands us to do so? Perhaps we run more on instinct than we know. Much how a cat will chase a laser pointer because it has the instinct to chase? Cats are playful,they either chase the light because its amusing or they chase it out of curiousity.Then they get bored,curl up and look at the human holding the laser pointer like they are the idiot.lol Instinct meh....Other behaviors could be explained because of conditioning.Instinct may not initially be under our control but it can be curbed.I bet over 89% of ppl in the world aren't in touch which instinct at all or there wouldn't be so many people who suffered misfortune.I think it's condition,social conditioning,learned behavior.At some points acts are going through the motions which I guess is the sleeping man's plight.Hes on auto-pilot.Also why the sleeping man is neither aware or able to act on instinct . Hence why the 7-3 working man is so more easily caught off guard than a person in a warzone.Conditioning diminishes survival instinct and reflexes are dulled as they aren't being used.People who still display such reflexes or are attuned with instinct are called paranoid.Paranoid= bad hence the conditioning begins.Dude in warzone knows no how he knows but knows something is going to happen,he runs and avoids getting hit by a mortar round.He is in touch with his instincts. Not even animals can be said to operate on pure instincts either.They can't tend to avoid getting killed by predators or in terms of predators can't avoid getting harmed by competitors.Human instinct seems more refined because we can entirely avoid a situation because of it (like ppl who stayed home on 9/11 at some whim and suvived whereas they woulda died had they gone to work)This is all speculation ,I admit that much. I think man is merely doing conditioned behaviors ,on autopilot with not awareness due to conditioning,learned behaviors and holds beliefs ,morals and acts based on social conditioning.Rather than re-wiring,the faulty circuitry is left.I guess a good way of stayng aware is breaking scheduled or conditioned behavior in favor of something new.Usually brush your teeth at 8 and eat at 6?Brush at 6 and eat at 5!You'd be surprising how hard it is and how it almost changes perspective a little bit. Why I dislike Jung is his so called "Posessed" statement and use of the term powers.He makes it sound like some great metaphysical being is pulling the strings.He loses credibility as a scientist because of things like this. There is nothing greater that can control a person other than the illusion placed before them.Some enigmatic universal force?It does not have to get that complicated.Its a good explanation for a sci-fi story,but thats about it!As a whole,due to lack of foresight and empathy, we humans weave this illusion,this supposed god or force is nothing more than the result of mismanagement,poor judgement,lack of self control , no appreciation for consequences of actions and apathy.Thats why things are so messed up and people just follow suite.A majority of people just don't care or aren't willing to take the time to think or ponder.They rather be distracted ,make big deals out of nothing and stay in the comfort zone and auto pilot. No dark hidden gods!Just flawed human machines,thats as dark and grim as gods are gonna get:us humans! We humans are the Outer gods dancing wildly in the mountains above the clouds.The mountains are our self elevated greatness and the dance is that of self destruction and the destruction of other ones.The Ancient Ones are the long forgotten wisdom and simplicity of knowing ones self that was left behind in simpler and more ancient times.The seeking of knowledge,spiritual insight and self awareness that was discarded once everything because mass produced,sleeper technology reigned and we had everything given to us or could simply buy it.
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Post by sin on Mar 20, 2009 13:32:41 GMT -6
"Contemporary man is blind to the fact that, with all his rationality and efficiency, he is possessed by 'powers' that are normally beyond his control. His ghosts and gods have not disappeared at all; they have merely got new names." C.G. Jung
how can this be an accurate assessment of things? well, for starters, we are possessed by powers beyond our control.Again, I take issue with the terminology 'possession'. Now, I acknowledge that we are subject to laws beyond our control, but I don't think these laws occupy us, poessess us - but we are subject to them. I can not jump up and float or fly, because of the laws of gravity - for example. No, we can not do 'anything' but I disagree that 'everything' merely happens to us. What of cause and effect? What of the choices we make (albeit under influence), not 'everything' in this universe just happens, it is subject to laws as well, even randomness. I disagree. I think you are bending the idea to fit your ideals. 'We' who is this 'we' first of all? If I say, 'I want an apple' who really wants the apple? My body, is hungry - it sends impulses to my brain and 'I' feel hunger, 'I' choose an apple, and then 'I' eat it. Which I? What 'forces'? If this correlates to the idea that 'we' feed the universe - it's metaphorical at best. What you are calling 'powers' are natural laws in the universe, and 'control' is a law we are subjected to, but not possessed by. I agree, we are constantly under the influence of our environment, and all of the information we take in per second. There is no 'free choice' or 'free will' but limited choice and limited will because of the influence we are subjected to. Is this a possession? I don't think so.
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 20, 2009 14:54:33 GMT -6
ouch, Jameson! you just insulted Jung by comparing him to a scientist. dude, that was a low blow...
at long last we start getting into the forbidden heart of the Fourth Way!
no, something else occupies us, something other than laws. call it our sleeping self, call it the universe, call it mechanicalness or whatever name you choose. i believe that all human beings are occupied by a force that is essentially not ourselves (our true selves).
the emphasis is put in the wrong place. we cannot DO anything. it is the doing that is illusion.
cause and effect is part of this happening. our choices are made by our false selves, our sleeping selves, that which is mechanical in us. like the Matrix, our ordinary state looks like the real thing... it fools us into thinking that we are Awake and living in the real world. we are asleep except for those times when we remember ourselves. a conscious person can do something, a sleeping person has no power to do.
similarly, randomness is also part of life which just happens. what do i mean by happens? that nothing is done consciously. there is no higher purpose; a higher purpose is based on hidden truths, essence, and/or Greater Reality. that which is unconscious merely happens.
"we" refers to roughly 99% of all human thoughts, feelings, and actions.
one or more of your unconscious selves wants the apple. your body is not your conscious self; it feels a need (given to us by the universe) and tries to satisfy this need. again, i'll go to the Matrix film. if you're in the Matrix and you want an apple, then eat it... did you decide to eat it in the real world outside of the Matrix or were you following pre-programmed urges which you really didn't consider too deeply?
your desire for food, apples in particular, has nothing to do with your essence - who you truly are as an individual who struggles to Awaken. your desires, even genetic pre-dispositions, were given to you by the universe. the decision to need food, to like apples, and to dislike pain were decided for you aeons ago when the lesser gods of the earth were building this prison for organic life!
decisions are consciously made, and we don't make decisions because we are asleep. that is why everything happens to us. while we remain asleep, we don't have the power to decide.
we feed the universe with our suffering. if you are really hungry and really want an apple, your unsatisfied desire causes you to suffer. this is the universe's nourishment. if you were to consciously decide to not eat the apple even though you really wanted it, then life didn't just happen to you in that moment. you did something because you acted contrary to your machine.
also, the irony is not lost on me that we're talking about eating an apple... possibly an apple from the tree of life which allows one to know the difference between good and evil.
what would you call it if there was an entity inside of your body, calling the shots 99% of the time?
you are taking it in an ordinary way. your logical deduction and understanding of the issue is impressive, but you are seeing things from a particular angle. what i'm trying to show you and everyone reading this is reality from a different angle, one that is alien to conventional understanding.
it's not even my angle; i didn't invent it. i was shown this strange paradigm by the Fourth Way. however, it's my firm belief that this new way of seeing is crucial to our dealing with humanity's many problems.
ia ia,
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by jmsn72 on Mar 20, 2009 18:13:04 GMT -6
ouch, Jameson! you just insulted Jung by comparing him to a scientist. dude, that was a low blow...Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest[/b][/color][/quote] LOL! You really dislike scientists don't you? ;D one or more of your unconscious selves wants the apple. your body is not your conscious self; it feels a need (given to us by the universe) and tries to satisfy this need. again, i'll go to the Matrix film. if you're in the Matrix and you want an apple, then eat it... did you decide to eat it in the real world outside of the Matrix or were you following pre-programmed urges which you really didn't consider too deeply?
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest[/quote] This i can agree in part with.How many of us are guilty of marching to the fridge when not even hungry?A vst too many of us! I dmit to sneaking in carrots when I am not hungry shamefully.The behavior is automatic so I don't question the impulse,even when I do it is overided by simply being a desire or thought. No focus or attention is placed on lifting my ass away from the computer,the individual movements of my feet along with taking in every surrounding detail of my environment.Awareness is not there,so I simply act,pull carrots out of the bag and eat unnecessarily.My body did not need that carrot,the carrot was not consuming my thoughts before I obtained it either.I just nonchanlantly walk to the fridge and grab the carrot pieces and with no focus "CRUNCH!CRUNCH!".(literally weeps at this point)The freakin carrots man,the freakin carrots!Damned conditioned behavior. The body is not our conscious self.I believe our body and awareness are separate to some degree.The body and physical brain has it's needs and desires and such things do not always agree with what I (the true I) truly desires.I do not attribute this sleeping state to external forces though,I attribute ti to a lack of discipline,foresight and total apathy. It shames me to admit any of this but it is true.Sleeping I am most times.However,contrary to Jung possessed I am not!I can say I am not possesed because I am aware I am asleep! I feel Jung's ideas of being possessed by powers does not quite work with the flow of Liber A.O. because being possessed by this power would offer us no ability to even tell we are asleep or much less awaken.If we were possessed by this power,then in essense we are all this power to some degree. Thus the power in question having taken all of the human minds would be like a replicating meme,everything born would be possessed by it from the start inheritting it from thier parents.As a result,self awareness,introspected thought would not come into being as the power would not require us to do any thing but be.This is getting abstract-warning -to borderline absurd.No I will casually just assume this power is resistance to change as you make this stagnant nature out to be.If this power were real,philosophy would not have come into being,just physical science.Religions to some degree would never have come to be and we would not be discussing or spending our time engaged in attempting to master self awareness as we would all be possesed by this essesnce. But this is not the case as we are capable of speaking and introspection now are we not?There is no power holding us back,and there is no limit.That which restrains us are learned qualities,complacency with a certain way of living,a tendency to look toward external noise rather than look into the silent depths of self and human nature woven into our genes.However,even then these circumstances can be changed or CoC would cease to exist and Lovecraft would have been a newspaper salesman,not a writer..or something else,who knows. As long as we paint the illusion or accept the limits an external force is holding us back,it will hold us back.Jung's ideas would not attribute an action to choice but to some un-named source which is absurd. Also I don't believe every human is completely awake or asleep.Even if their choices are just really autopliot and even in the case of the carrot and I,we made the choice to be complacent and accept it and allow ourselves to be in auto pilot so it wasn't 100% sleep.100% sleep is a person who is literally a human robot devoid of anything other than orders or command input into it.Or a person entirely braindead...i dunno.I probably did not make any sense did I?No matter. The idea of just being awake or asleep with no middle ground is dualistic.Either on or off,right or wrong.It does not take into consideration the idea some beings may not desire control.It would seem to make more sense if there were various degrees or levels of being in these two states.Especially considering we need to take what science knows as FACT into consideration.I know you may dislike science but as far as our physical bodies are concerned ther are truths. Now ummm what was I talking about again?
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 20, 2009 20:01:28 GMT -6
this is precisely the point at which the Great Old Ones make Their presence known. because of Their influence on our evolution, we have the opportunity to change, to be more than the universe's puppet. if it were not for Cthulhu and His kin, we would still be little more than apes running amok.
unfortunately, this oppositional undercurrent scarcely makes an impact in today's world; it is recessive in human beings. only a few have the will to Awaken.
VS
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Post by sin on Mar 21, 2009 5:32:51 GMT -6
So, in a nutshell - it is because 'some' of the decisions we make are unconscious. So this equates to a sleeping self calling the shots? This sleeping self then becomes something foreign to us, because we are widely unaware of it, we only catch a glimpse of it from time to time. Therefore, because an idea is foreign - it becomes an entity occupying our meat bags?
The 'What if Cthulhu Awakens' idea comes to mind. So, if this 'entity' known as our sleeping self, awakens - it takes over the collective I's and that is our true self? Why isn't it just a more prominent I, dominating the weaker I's and when revealed - how can we know it's true, if nothing is true, and everything is permitted? So we 'permit' this dominant I to take over - it becomes consciously aware of all of the decisions we make, the actions we take, and the laws no longer apply? Our meat bags are no longer needed and we decend into the darkness - to live as what? A thought? An idea? A cosmic fart?
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Post by Shaz'rahjeem on Mar 21, 2009 6:58:05 GMT -6
wow, this is a long thread. I was going to get into it a while ago but hey shit happens. Ill have to print it tomorrow. because no, my hanging from my head. I shall now join the shantak birds atop kaddath and cosmicly fart with the night gaunts
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Post by jmsn72 on Mar 21, 2009 11:48:28 GMT -6
I'd wonder if our meat bags weren't an idea already.I'd wonder if it would not be more logical to say ascending to darkness then since this meat factory world is the lowest form of awareness already.
I rather like the idea of forcing the productive I's into the fray and having them work.I dislike the idea of submitting to the dominant Is,ya see my dominant Is are all negative and I'd wind up in an asylum or in death or dead if they took over.Selecting the few productive I's and using only them in a state of action by which to define self makes more sense.
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 21, 2009 12:22:45 GMT -6
Morpheus: The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
i would go with 'practically all'. if i had to put a figure on it, i'd say about 99% of our thoughts, feelings, and actions are unconscious. because things are decided for us, i say that we cannot do and that we cannot decide anything for ourselves.
no, not quite. the entity (or universal forces) that controls our machine is able to do this because we are asleep. if we were Awake for the majority of our lives, then it would be a different story. things would be different...
our essence (also known as our true self) is foreign to how we see our self, what we know about our self, our everyday machine life.
yes, we can only catch a glimpse of who we really are underneath the illusions of the world. these illusions are not only external, they are also internal... making them all the more insidious. in effect, we are the enemy! the universe created us to ignore or destroy any hope we have to Awaken. that is why constant struggle is required.
essence is always passive in us, personality is always active and dominant. personality is what the universe has created for us, our entity which keeps us asleep. essence is what we were born with; it is our divine spark, the potential for becoming Godlike.
just to clarify, the entity is not our sleeping self. the entity keeps us asleep. it is the autopilot that makes ordinary life what it is and keeps us in our place.
there are some 'I's connected with our essence, but they are constantly drowned out by the noise of our many unconnected 'I's. we want to strengthen the 'I's that wish to work, organize them into a fighting force. use them to become more conscious more often.
Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.
again, i must rely on examples from "fiction" in order to explain the Greater Reality. why? because the reality we know is a lie. if the seemingly conscious decision to eat an apple is, in actuality, nothing more than an unconscious and automated response to a universal program... then it becomes exceedingly difficult to illustrate such an outside paradigm. that's why we use Lovecraft's fiction. because the everyday language we use is rooted in this reality, and this reality is mostly lies.
for those 4th way novices out there, and especially those who know nothing at all about the Work, let us use The Matrix as a means to perceive the Cult of Cthulhu's alien understanding.
Liber A:O was constructed upon unorthodox foundations. to really understand the internal workings, i recommend books such as The Fourth Way, In Search of the Miraculous, and Maurice Nicoll's commentaries on the 4th way.
ia ia,
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by Draelloathe on Mar 21, 2009 12:26:48 GMT -6
This is a big one for me, for if if taken literally. Even worshipping, you take anothers reality for your own. And are only free when you are as a god.
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Post by sin on Mar 21, 2009 14:56:32 GMT -6
Ok, so I'm clear - the 'essence' void of personality - is the stepping off point, to achieving an awakened state? So, when we die - if that 'essence' remains, while our identities, our I's are dead - we are free?
While alive, our personalities enslave us?
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 21, 2009 15:41:12 GMT -6
basically, yes. although for a few people, there can be freedom while alive. while struggling, we live in fluctuating states between the extremes of slavery and freedom.
all the little tricks and exercises like self-remembering, not identifying, not expressing negative emotions, seeing ourselves as a triad of physical, emotional, and intellectual centers, refusing to suffer, external considering, and so forth aid us in recognizing our essence, isolating it, and letting it grow.
does anyone else have questions. i realize that this material is difficult to grasp, so please don't be shy. ask away!
VS
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Post by jmsn72 on Mar 21, 2009 15:47:29 GMT -6
Im just glad you were more clear on the fluctuation part.It's really helpful and makes the concept easier to grasp!
I think there are times when a person may move close to awakening unwittingly and see this reality as monstrously hideous.Such moment of grasping the frightening truth are rare though.Like looking in the eyes of a fierce monster whose teeth are everywhere and your mind and body both know this and feel it but the feeling is ineffable and you know you need a way out...
Funny how until a person is placed in prison,bondage or pain in some type within this reality,they never realize they were trapped from the very beginning.
Forgive me I'm ranting
I can see how embracing,pain and fear sometimes can be useful.
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Mar 22, 2009 10:16:30 GMT -6
basically, yes. although for a few people, there can be freedom while alive. while struggling, we live in fluctuating states between the extremes of slavery and freedom.
all the little tricks and exercises like self-remembering, not identifying, not expressing negative emotions, seeing ourselves as a triad of physical, emotional, and intellectual centers, refusing to suffer, external considering, and so forth aid us in recognizing our essence, isolating it, and letting it grow.
does anyone else have questions. i realize that this material is difficult to grasp, so please don't be shy. ask away!
VS So your saying, strengthen our conciousness to the point to where it remains after death?
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Mar 22, 2009 10:21:38 GMT -6
we can only catch a glimpse of who we really are underneath the illusions of the world. So our true selves may very well be the same essance as the Old Ones themselves!
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 22, 2009 12:19:27 GMT -6
being conscious has untold benefits, one of which is being able to survive physical death.
indeed. hopefully, it becomes apparent how all the pieces start fitting together.
how or why did i put these disassociated bits of knowledge together years ago when conceiving an actual Cthulhu Cult? was it pure accident or did it manifest by eldritch and infernal design?
VS
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