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Post by sin on Mar 12, 2009 13:37:11 GMT -6
If you haven't seen it, rent it:
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Post by sin on Mar 12, 2009 13:39:13 GMT -6
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Mar 12, 2009 13:43:47 GMT -6
If you haven't seen it, rent it: I love that movie! But my local blockbuster doesnt have it I may have to order it online.
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Post by jmsn72 on Mar 12, 2009 13:54:15 GMT -6
That's fine, this is your personal opinion and I do not object to you holding it - but I am a critical thinker - and I have to hold to my own. And hold your own ,you do quite well may I add. ;D For the most part I can see what you mean.Having a list of rights and wrongs is something we more expect from a school or daycare center.There no point telling cultists not to rapeif there are some who are going to do so anyway.Nor will stating that we look down on sexual abuse of children stop a cult member from doing so.Since this is an internet community nobody truly knows anybody at all Even being around someone in person won't imply you know what they do, will do or who they are. My question is simple.This path,was it intended to be open ended enough to permit independence and free interpretation?Surely there's more than one way to achieve one goal and the cultist should be left to decide. I think I can see where Cora'Sahn may be going with this(but I may be incorrect as I may have read into it wrong). The philosophy seems more closed and less permissive of individual choice when it starts repeating laws we see already in society. Granted it's not a free for all.Of course one would assume this is understood by the intelligent lifeforms and needs not be stated right? Maybe a tiny little legal disclaimer stating the Cult will not be held liable for this that and the other thing or something to that effect would be better?
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Post by sin on Mar 12, 2009 14:24:30 GMT -6
And hold your own ,you do quite well may I add. ;D [takes a bow] Thank you. Yes, this plays a role. Codifying behavior is pointless - slave morality will rise, and their will be a rebellion against it. Even if that rebellion seems insignificant to the rest of us - it's the beginning of the fall. I refer you to the rise and fall of the Roman Empire. This empire was not built in a day, nor did it fall in a day - but in graduations. If we start here, with creating slave morality - we are assisting a rebellion and our own downfall. [sigh] This is just how my mind operates, this is my nature - to tell me to stop questioning, that it's not worth discussing - I will rebel by challenging that very idea! We are more than that. We are an organization of real people, doing real damage in the world. I plant my memes into the hearts and minds of men, and what do they do with these ideas? They foster them, they nurture them to grow. Those of us who have grottos are provoking evolution - to what? An awakening state? Supermen? Psychological weapons? Who is to say? In the real world, we reach people, real people are sitting at keyboards diving in - and they will want to connect to others. When they do, what will they find? Skeletons in the closet? Bound babies in the basement? Prepare yourselves. Do you want to know what my 'simple question' was a while back? Will this operate as a traditional cult, or is 'cult' a metaphor? VS answered 'both'. Isn't it the path of a traditional cult to condition the behavior of it's members? My line of questioning for VS is far deeper than you realize. VS may not even be consciously aware of the repercussions of the ideas he proposes in AO. This is what I'm attempting to determine. I believe you are beginning to see, awaken. I don't know about you, but I don't need a proverbial watchman. Something along these lines would have been sufficient but it's too late to make edits now - it's been released and in hard cover. This dialogue may be crucial if criticisms arise in the future, preparedness is key in being an effective cult leader. Lead us not, into servitude but into leadership and awakening!
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Post by jmsn72 on Mar 12, 2009 16:58:26 GMT -6
[takes a bow] Thank you. Yes, this plays a role. Codifying behavior is pointless - slave morality will rise, and their will be a rebellion against it. Even if that rebellion seems insignificant to the rest of us - it's the beginning of the fall. I refer you to the rise and fall of the Roman Empire. This empire was not built in a day, nor did it fall in a day - but in graduations. If we start here, with creating slave morality - we are assisting a rebellion and our own downfall. [sigh] This is just how my mind operates, this is my nature - to tell me to stop questioning, that it's not worth discussing - I will rebel by challenging that very idea! Indeed,in order for a structure to hit maximum efficiency,it needs intelligent opposition,for if it can not stand in the face of such intelligent opposition,like Rome (or New York as a result of mismanagement) it will gradually crumble . We are more than that. We are an organization of real people, doing real damage in the world. I plant my memes into the hearts and minds of men, and what do they do with these ideas? They foster them, they nurture them to grow. Those of us who have grottos are provoking evolution - to what? An awakening state? Supermen? Psychological weapons? Who is to say? In the real world, we reach people, real people are sitting at keyboards diving in - and they will want to connect to others. When they do, what will they find? Skeletons in the closet? Bound babies in the basement? Prepare yourselves. ;D Now thats what I like to hear,technomancy,memetics and possible even the unconscious act of creating super establishment crushing egregores Do you want to know what my 'simple question' was a while back? Will this operate as a traditional cult, or is 'cult' a metaphor? VS answered 'both'. Isn't it the path of a traditional cult to condition the behavior of it's members? My line of questioning for VS is far deeper than you realize. VS may not even be consciously aware of the repercussions of the ideas he proposes in AO. This is what I'm attempting to determine. Hitting a middle ground between the two is indeed in theory the path of most resistance ,the ultimate balancing act.If it can be done,I'd like to see it.Part of this balancing act is bringing such things to light as I feel you have effectively when you questioned the A.O. content. I don't know about you, but I don't need a proverbial watchman. Agreed!Surely most of us know who or better yet (who is misleading given the shifting sand of I's) what we are and stand to do. Lead us not, into servitude but into leadership and awakening! To question whether to rule by tyranny or example,I say example is more effective.Tyranny provokes uprisings.To lead by example makes one want to walk with the leader and provokes the follower to want to unearth thier true potential.When people are ruled by tyranny ,they are stuck walking behind a leader and become bitter and lose faith. I could be wrong on this one but there isn't a soul who seeks to improve self who would not be a little insulted by being reminded of what is already understood.
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 12, 2009 18:23:38 GMT -6
wow, i was gone all day and look what has happened! hahaha!
not sure where to begin, but will just dive in...
i believe that Abtanazahx was on your side, Cora'Sahn. that post sounds like it was directed to me, although i could be mistaken.
i don't think taking pictures of naked children is illegal. i'm not sure where the line between nudity and obscenity or sexuality makes it "porn", but i think having a nude photo of your child or some African child (like the ones starving in magazines) is OK, meaning no one will prosecute you.
making, owning, and selling child pornography is a special case that came up, more or less, accidentally. i mentioned it because the sentence(s) before, in Liber A:O, i advocated for the decriminalization of all pornography. all pornography includes child porn, by default. i didn't want it assumed that the CoC was "behind" such practices.
which brings me to the word "condone". the definitions i found online are these...
1. to disregard or overlook (something illegal, objectionable, or the like).
2. to give tacit approval to: By his silence, he seemed to condone their behavior.
3. to pardon or forgive (an offense); excuse.
and there is another word, "support". there are certain things i will not support, by extension and due to the present sociological realities, there are certain things the Cult of Cthulhu will not support. however, that doesn't mean the CoC is against it. i don't have to support everything, or anything for that matter, which creates certain grey areas.
i find this perfectly reasonable and in keeping with the Cult's paradigm. there are actions, ideas, and preferences that are not supported by our organization. the CoC does not support illegal behavior, yet our Lovecraftian faith condones many illicit activities. to some this might sound paradoxical.
to use the current popular example, the CoC does not support sexually abusing children (and again i'd like to stress my definition of child only goes up to about 14). this is also one of the few practices that the CoC also does not condone. things we don't support, nor condone, should not be associated with our organization. there must be some distance, that doesn't mean i'm going to go out and spy on you, excommunicate you, or kill you... it just means i don't want certain things closely aligned with the CoC.
so, we have things we do and do not support and things that we do and do not condone. taken to an extreme, i would die for freedom of speech, for certain liberties and inalienable rights. i would give my life if it means that you might be free of persecution. would i die so you could have sex with a 10 year old or so that you could film it? no. no, i definitely would not.
what some of you have been talking about are activities, ideas, and preferences which are "forbidden". i don't think child pornography should be made legal. and put to a vote, i don't think any of you would either if it was on your city or township's next ballot. however, i never said that it was forbidden.
i don't support white supremacist ideology, for another example. the CoC does not support it. however, in some cases (the non-violent ones) i or the Cult may condone a white supremacist ideology. meaning, a Cultist may be forgiven for having such unfortunate beliefs. similarly, i have never claimed that it was forbidden.
say, a person seriously threatened my life (with a gun or some other weapon). would you support this? would you condone it? would you consider this action forbidden?
the CoC Oaths are important because it allows our religion to include other sects and groups as official Grottoes. without certain expectations, how can we continue as a religion? pure chaos isn't possible. this is an organization, a school, a Cult! there must be a semblance of structure however vague or nebulous.
which leads us to... what if a Cultist or Grotto breaks these Oaths? what then? well, let's cross that bridge when we come to it. as guidelines, i think they allow individuals and smaller organizations to see what we expect. it also gives us an excuse to distance ourselves from them, if such was necessary.
by the way, the Cult of Cthulhu Oaths are here:
www.cultofcthulhu.net/cthulhu_oaths.htm
i appreciate the questions and debate. i think it's a fruitful endeavor. for the moment, i've spent long enough re-stating my position. hopefully, my responses have cleared some of the debris away from the road because we still have a long journey ahead of us. please feel free to keep the discussion going...
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Mar 12, 2009 21:30:03 GMT -6
As I walk into the moonless night, I shall do what benefits the Old Ones and Their spawn; whatever is fruitful, righteous, and pleasurable is the way. As I bow before the green onyx altar, I shall respect and honor the Cult of Cthulhu along with its members and vision. As I grow stronger, so does the Cult. As the Cult grows stronger, so do I. As I Awaken from my fitful slumber, I summon the Ancient Things from the blackest abyss, for They are the purest distillation of myself. Our struggles will allow us to evolve into what we must become. The Emerald Kingdom of Great Cthulhu is at hand.
I like it. The first one basically is saying do as thou will, in the name of the old ones, and whatever makes you happy, right? The Second is self explanitory. The third, I THINK, means that through struggling to awaken, we shall achieve our goal, and be AS the old ones themselves, right? Correct me if I am wrong.. I want to make sure I understand.
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Post by sin on Aug 3, 2009 11:09:50 GMT -6
We intend to use the Oath in ritual, before our Grotto Oath. I think it's a nice touch. It's short, simple and to the point.
I made it part of our initiation ritual.
I particularly like this statement:
"As I grow stronger, so does the Cult. As the Cult grows stronger, so do I. "
It correlates well to our Grotto mission statement, being a beacon for human development.
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Post by Izratan'Sharaz on Aug 5, 2009 8:42:30 GMT -6
we are the breathing life force of the COC, as long as we prevail we will rise and as to the old ones. IA IA Cthulhu
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Post by sin on Dec 16, 2009 11:28:19 GMT -6
As I walk into the moonless night, I shall do what benefits the Old Ones and Their spawn; whatever is fruitful, righteous, and pleasurable is the way. As I bow before the green onyx altar, I shall respect and honor the Cult of Cthulhu along with its members and vision. As I grow stronger, so does the Cult. As the Cult grows stronger, so do I. As I Awaken from my fitful slumber, I summon the Ancient Things from the blackest abyss, for They are the purest distillation of myself. Our struggles will allow us to evolve into what we must become. The Emerald Kingdom of Great Cthulhu is at hand. I like it. The first one basically is saying do as thou will, in the name of the old ones, and whatever makes you happy, right? The Second is self explanitory. The third, I THINK, means that through struggling to awaken, we shall achieve our goal, and be AS the old ones themselves, right? Correct me if I am wrong.. I want to make sure I understand. VS, I didn't want to step on your toes. I believe this deserves an answer from you personally.
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Post by egodiabolus on Dec 16, 2009 14:03:02 GMT -6
Wow.
Let me take a shot at this. Forget about the issue with child-molestation. Let's say there is a law that says it is illegal to pick your nose. The law exists because the majority of our society thinks picking your nose is vile and immoral. No other rational than that. Children who were forced to pick their nose grow-up traumatized and damaged. I am not spoofing the seriousness of the child-molestation issue, I am just trying to take away the emotional impact of the analogy and focusing on the core issue: socially defined limitations. Let's say that despite our society's issues with nostril mining, other societies in other times were flagrant nose-pickers. Indeed, some of the most prosperous and admired societies upon which our society is based revelled in the joys of nasal-gold.
Furthermore, let us say that other societies existing in our own era are less concerned about literal brain-picking. In those societies, children freely root around their sinuses and experience no trauma. This would suggest that the trauma experienced in our society by fingering nose goblins is purely related to our social response to the event and not the event itself.
This suggest that these "laws" regarding nose-picking are delusions, artifice that satisfies the majority of our society's feelings and a moral issue. Unable to convince the moral majority of the joys of nose-picking, you could decide to go live in a society with a more liberal nasal excavation policy.
But there, maybe they have rules regarding how the snot is handled. Perhaps it is a crime to flick the little nose goblin. Maybe "Booger" is the name of a local god, and a certain ritual must be engaged in to satisfy the moral needs of THAT society. Basically, what you discover is that any society you go to is going to have rules as determined by the majority that will often not be based on anything rational... indeed, "rational" may have a very fluid definition itself.
So, you say to hell with it. You are going to tie some inner-tubes together and float off into the middle of the ocean were you can pick your nose in any manner and do what you will with your profits you see fit. You are now a society of one. Lo and behold, being a society of one sucks, so one day when another floater comes along who claims to believe in the same total freedom about nose picking as you do, you hitch together and become a social order of two. Another comes along and your a nation of three. Three nose-picking enthusiasts.
One of you likes to wipe his snot on the other two. You are not cool with that.
The other thinks his nostril menstruation should be placed in the nasal cavities of others. Yep, your not down with that either.
Ends up that at the end of the day, your rules are in force only to the limit of your skin (and sometimes not even that far). Anytime that any obvious, intervening space exists between you and another individual king-of-the-nose-picking-universe, certain rules of engagement need to be established or someone will need to die. If a gladiator-style melee to the death is not your thing, then those rules will have to be consensual, as determined by those who wish to be governed by those rules.
Our problem, and I think I speak for everyone named Jason wearing my pants at this moment, is that so many of the rules we currently obey we never had a voice in creating. It seems that our social system exists autonomously from the individuals it governs, so not only am I governed by it, but I have no hope in shaping or changing it. Sure, when the inmates break out of prison, they will have to form a new set of guidelines for mutual interaction, and that system has just a high of chance of becoming another monstrosity like the current system, but at least we will have broken free to make our own choices.
Vengers guidelines are a hypothetical option in the theoretical system that will result from our potential emergence as a group from the current social zeit-geist. The process getting to that point should be our focus, after which we can form our nation-states of nose-picking, butt-scratching, perpetual masturbating individuals of every disgusting and vile stripe and then decide for ourselves which new systems of social management we are willing to engage in.
mmm-yep.
-Jason
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Post by sin on Dec 16, 2009 14:40:46 GMT -6
Only to start the process all over again, so you see my pain? 'Society' is the bane to awakening.
Great analogy though, had a shit eatin' grin on my face the whole time I was reading it.
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Post by egodiabolus on Dec 16, 2009 15:11:50 GMT -6
See, you would be a society of coprophagiaists...
Like it or not, when two gods interact, the result will either be a very bloody war leading to the destruction of one or both the deities or a new system that will always threaten to subvert them both. The most we can hope to accomplish is to exist in a manner that is as mentally liberated as possible with each of us determining our own personal level of comfort with whatever results.
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Post by sin on Dec 16, 2009 15:17:36 GMT -6
An idea that doesn't exist in my reality.
I don't embrace dualism, this or that, I seek to destroy it.
Not good enough. Mediocrity.
That's the problem, this kind of thought process keeps us assimilated and part of the hive mind.
In order to be mentally liberated, one must destroy it's host. I don't know about you, but I'm not content to exist as a parasite.
It's all well and good in theory, but in application? Something has got to give, or else we are nothing more than 'every body else' with a different aesthetic.
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Post by I AM the Way on Dec 16, 2009 15:34:03 GMT -6
Indeed. I wanted them to be interpretive, so there's no absolute right or wrong way to act. Yet, the spirit should be discernible.
Well said, Jason. And... gross!
One hopes that a progressive spirit enhances each new society as we continue to evolve. However, if things are not dealt with in a conscious way, then it will be far from ideal.
Could there be a Theocratic Lovecraftian Utopia in the distant future? Perhaps... I like to think so. [/b]
If we can find a commonality, then let there be peace. For those who will not be peaceful, a swift extermination.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by egodiabolus on Dec 16, 2009 17:14:12 GMT -6
Even the Old Ones experience limits. Azathoth is mad, even blind. His pipe-panning generates the universe in some myths, but one day his pipe will be stolen and broken and the universe will cease to exist, including Azathoth. Cthulhu lies dead and dreaming, felled by a shift in the stars. To exist without limits would mean becoming the sum-total of existence. To exist without conflict would be a meaningless existence. Life will always be defined by the forces that oppose life, creativity by banality... In complex interactions there are always multiple possibilities, but when reduced to there simplest forms that can all be defined as "0" and "1". I am all for other options. Perhaps a singularity? But then, a singularity is either all encompassing (allowing for nothing other than the singularity) or immediately divides into duality (that which is the singularity and that which is not). What about all possibilities at once? Even these reduce to a singularity along a duality chain; up or down, left or right, more or less. maybe the problem is the framework of reality itself, down to our right and left divided brains. Perhaps... just perhaps, it is a continuity. Lesser emanations leading to greater and greater emanations, resulting in an ever greater emanation at the end of the chain. Now that is a fun idea. We lesser emanations are feeding the emanations further up the chain unless we choose to instead eat the thing infront of us. I LIKE this idea. The awakened ones work there way up the chain, feeding upon or being fed upon, until the overtake the thing at the front. But even this is a tenuous position. Not only will you get eaten eventually, you have to be eaten in order for the whole to progress.
Now you're a rolling feeding chain, but duality is still inherent... eat or be eaten.
As to mediocrity. My life is an adventure, the greatest story I will ever know, and even if it is unknown to another I will never encounter anything as great. Mediocrity is a value statement made by others who's worth is determined externally with lesser vision regarding the value of their own lives.
No offense.
-Jason
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Post by nixx on Dec 17, 2009 7:41:06 GMT -6
I rather like that concept, Jason, & it tends to make the most sense.I don't think we'll be able to find the perfect distillation of these concepts while still stuck in the prison that is consensus reality. We can exist in an Awakened state on an individual level & the more that Awaken will create more & more of a schism that will eventually shatter this reality; then we will be getting somewhere. Until that point, we need to survive within the prison walls & do our best to Awake.
As far as the whole subject that started these three pages of discussion & debate, I personally do not agree with the subject of child porn or exploitation, but I do not interfere with others right to do so as long as they do not interfere with my right to gut them & hang their carcass & glistening entrails on a spike for all to see. I am firmly in the camp of ultimate freedom requires ultimate responsibility; do what you will, by all means, but then don't go running to the courts so you can hide behind ultra-liberal laws that will protect you from your just deserts. If you choose to victimize another, then them that you victimize or those they choose should have the choice to visit their opinion back upon you in any way they see fit. You want chaos & anarchy where each is responsible for their own actions, there you are.
I agree that any organization needs a framework,or it is not an organization. The simple fact that the entity exists assumes the fact there is some kind of structure. If Venger chooses to make his personal views known & establish this as policy for the CoC as a whole, then it is up to each Cultist to view this in the light of their own Work & personal biases & either agree or disagree. Establishing this "control" within the system in no way inhibits each Cultists' journey toward Awakening. Venger is not responsible for waking us up, we are. He presents techniques, concepts, & policies for the organization; it is up to us to apply them as best works for us on an individual level.
Those that would slavishly expect our bibles to accomplish the work for them are beyond help anyway & should be left in the wake of those able to assimilate the information & utilize it toward their own godhood.
My two cents, spend them how you wish.
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Post by sin on Dec 17, 2009 10:14:12 GMT -6
Even the Old Ones experience limits. I disagree. The imagination is the 'other dimension', and anything can happen, if you can dream it, it can be a 'reality'. Why even place limitations on thought? I can't say I can relate to your thought process on this. My original thought process on this issue, was why even mention it? If you are going to 'dictate' behavior for cultists, it seems to contradict many of the philosophies which make up the Cult of Cthulhu theology. Pedophilia is addressed, but not other illegal activities such as necrophilia, 'literal rape', and other such behaviors that are abhorrent to society, as well as the cultist living in that society.
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Post by I AM the Way on Dec 17, 2009 12:20:38 GMT -6
Why place limitations on thought? Because thought does have limitations.
I agree that if you can dream something, it has the potential to become a reality. Yet, Jason seems to be correct; the A:O have limits just as we do. If the A:O were all-powerful, then how could They be exiled in the first place? Why do Their children suffer in this prison? Why can't They return to this universe/dimension/plane?
I like this idea as well. There's something about it which speaks to me. Jason, were you influenced by the 4th way's Ray of Creation or perhaps some other occult concept?
Is it possible to resist being devoured by Awakening?
Wow, that was an extremely insightful and well written post. Well done, Nixx.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by sin on Dec 17, 2009 12:53:30 GMT -6
Oh? I would say that memetics can go along way here. If you 'think' thought has limitations, then it does. I disagree. If we place 'human conditions' on philosophical ideas, we are boxing up these ideas with absolutes. We put them there. With our ideas. We could very well write the next chapter, to awaken them fully (them = us), and free them from their prison. A prison, we...the writers - built for them. And by proxy, for ourselves. Why does one idea have to be 'correct' and the other 'incorrect' More dualism. In terms of philosophy, there are no right or wrong answers here - especially, in lieu of making self realizations, and becoming fully conscious. Seems to me, you are quick to close the book on this issue.
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