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Post by docdr on May 28, 2008 4:43:44 GMT -6
It's just another word.
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Post by Logos on Jun 23, 2008 20:16:30 GMT -6
Evil is just another word that lacks definition outside of our human world. What is Evil to me? Dependence, mindlessness, and stasis.
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sweetevil
Novitiate
There Is Magick In All Things...
Posts: 17
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Post by sweetevil on Jun 25, 2008 21:13:42 GMT -6
to me...ignorance is evil...people tend to lash out at that which they know nothing of or don't understand... and see VS...I told you on myspace I'd be back
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Post by hiqconsoul on Jun 26, 2008 17:53:19 GMT -6
to me...ignorance is evil...people tend to lash out at that which they know nothing of or don't understand... and see VS...I told you on myspace I'd be back +1
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Post by maroth on Nov 17, 2008 15:13:29 GMT -6
Good and evil do not exist. They're silly ideas created by humans that change based on what their culture has conditioned them to believe about morals... although I do like them for a good plotline in a story, chances are that the Outer Gods would laugh themselves out of Chaos when presented with such mundane human beliefs.
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Madguten
Moderator
CoC forum moderator
Woe, to he who hears the howling
Posts: 2,785
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Post by Madguten on Nov 18, 2008 8:29:30 GMT -6
I agree. When we talk about "evil" as humans, we are only seeing things from our own immediate point of view.
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Post by mothman99 on Nov 19, 2008 21:14:42 GMT -6
goat had the best answer i think. I say im evil just because i promote things that humans classically categorize as evil, but its really an empty word. If you think something is "good" than whatever opposes that is "evil". My village is good, so scorpions that come in the night are evil. Is disease evil? when a population of animals preys on another population, is that evil? Theres no evil in nature. All our "morals" are an interpretation. All one can do is develop enough intuition to know a friend from an enemy and act accordingly.
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Madguten
Moderator
CoC forum moderator
Woe, to he who hears the howling
Posts: 2,785
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Post by Madguten on Nov 20, 2008 7:24:50 GMT -6
I agree, Nietzsche just might have hit the nail on the head there.
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Post by sin on Nov 20, 2008 10:12:35 GMT -6
Evil, simply put, is something that displeases you.
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Post by egodiabolus on Jan 3, 2009 11:06:11 GMT -6
I am certain that this point has been echoed by others, but here it goes: "Evil" is a value judgement, relative to the perspective of the observer. This value judgement tends to be made along the lines of that which benefits the observer and that which does not. If an event or act does not benefit the observer, then the tendency is for the observer to label the event or act as "evil". -Ego www.creativeodditiesstudios.com
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Post by librabys on Feb 17, 2009 20:14:08 GMT -6
"There are no moral phenomena at all, but only a moral interpretation of phenomena." -- Friedrich Nietzsche That is also my opinion. Very relative concept. Example: killing is considered evil by most people, but they do eat meat and they consider it is not evil. I personally have a problem with people who believe themselves to be pure good though. It often sound kind of hypocrite
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Post by xkingx99 on Mar 1, 2009 18:27:56 GMT -6
i was under the impression that the universe doesnt really give a fuck what we do.. but people do. does it matter?
how do you know if it's evil if it doesn't benefit or hurt you? like if a guy robs a bank.. is that not like hyenas stealing a lions food? are we different than animals? are we supposed to use our highly developed frontal cortex for humanity or for our own good? life is so confusing.. does it matter what we are SUPPOSED to do? we are supposed to not use psilocybin mushrooms but is it wrong? is it different than having a few drinks at the bar?
life is so confusing to me. i think i like it complicated. can someone fill me in on the views of the cult and their thoughts on psychedelics? im new here.. im just interested somehow. i dont want to take the time to figure out why yet.. i guess ive known people interested in cthulhu, im interested in occult and evil because ive seen some crazy shit in my life.. good people turning out to be evil. people that seem to help you and hurt you at the same time (the term moral psychopath comes to mind), not sure if its to teach me a lesson or what. im just trying to figure things out i think it will be a long time before i do that
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Post by jmsn72 on Mar 1, 2009 18:38:03 GMT -6
I find only one thing evil.It has nothing to do with actions or morals,those are all irrelevant. Evil is taking 1 step forward and sliding 1 step or 2 steps or more backwards.Evil is simply progress halted or turned into regress.Potential smashed,energy drained,effort diminished,attempt never attempted.
Evil is being stuck or regressing,no progress or room for it and nothing more in my opinion.Evil is something I know too well.
The rest such as rape or murder or etc...what have you are best left to you to decipher as you will.I choose to ignore that stuff and look toward the larger scheme of things in terms of defining evil.
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Post by I AM the Way on Mar 1, 2009 19:37:15 GMT -6
basically, there are three very different definitions or interpretations of evil.
1. evil is whatever is against me and my beliefs. for these people evil is always assumed to be bad.
2. evil is that which opposes what is normal, mainstream, traditional, and orthodox. for those who go against the grain, evil is good.
3. evil, like good, is just another name for someone else's value judgements. there is no good and no evil. these people try to avoid using such terms.
to some degree, human beings are animals; but, of course, we are also more. yes, use whatever you can for your own good... higher centers, lower centers, blind luck, etc. and what is good? in this case, let us assume that good means that which is positive.
you must save yourself before you are able to help anyone else. i'm talking about spiritual salvation here. and when i mean spiritual, i'm talking about states and centers that ordinary humanity cannot reach. because such realms are beyond ordinary understanding, they are given supernatural qualities by regular folk. however, the Cthulhu Cult knows that terminology is not what is important. self-transformation is what's important.
as for psychedelic drugs... used in moderation, they can be beneficial. but they are also illegal in many places, so be careful.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by jmsn72 on Mar 2, 2009 22:00:08 GMT -6
I noticed though,as far as evil being taboo and unconventional, people will only call it evil until they think your a nice person,then its not evil anymore.They'll say its just you.Hold doors for people and they dont care if you kill pregnant women for fetuses to eat on your free time,your no longer evil,your just "you". As times change and people seem more self oriented,what we may have been evil because it deviates is no longer evil so long as they gain from it.So even defining evil as that which is outside the norm has to be taken with a gain of salt.Hell, having a black man as president is evil but a majority picked him despite how outside the norm it seemed.See what Im saying?Times changed way too much since Satanism went mainstream for us to even define evil as outside of the norm anymore.Everyone is doing their own thing regardless or we can say most people have a Satanic rhetoric without knowing it already.
The people who would consider souls like us evil are but 30 ,no maybe 20 % of the American population if even that much and that number is dropping as the old die and the young emerge.
Basically ,no organization,Satanic or spiritual in other deviant ways can make claim to being evil anymore.The world embraces different too much now for us or any other strange group to be called evil.Most people are looking at traditionalist or bible belt evangelists and shouting evil at them these days because Obama hitting office only proved people are tired of the norm.Not to be uncharacteristically optimistic because Im not but most of the US at least sees the that which wont change/evolve as evil.
The CoC is anything but evil,rather we are at the forefront of good.Take no offense,in fact it should be an honor because it shows how much the world has progressed although it is still little.Evil are old greedy prune looking white men with wayward smiles who sink million dollar companies over night,nothing more.If you want the evil spot,you gotta contend with them although I couldn't see why such a title is any longer relevant.
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Post by Xor'Nefthrahm on Mar 6, 2009 8:15:49 GMT -6
There is no real good or evil in my mind, just intention. BUT if I had to use the word, it would be for something that isnt excepted by the general population. That would mean this organization is EVIL to outsiders, but a good thing to us. That MIGHT make US evil since the average person wouldnt accept our beliefs, but that is just how I choose to define the word.. it may hold a different meaning to different people... but that is the beauty of the word, it is all in the eye of the beholder.
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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Mar 7, 2009 1:31:52 GMT -6
basically, there are three very different definitions or interpretations of evil.
1. evil is whatever is against me and my beliefs. for these people evil is always assumed to be bad.
2. evil is that which opposes what is normal, mainstream, traditional, and orthodox. for those who go against the grain, evil is good.
3. evil, like good, is just another name for someone else's value judgements. there is no good and no evil. these people try to avoid using such terms.
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
for suuuuure. and notice HP, that all of your definitions require subjectivity. in matters of morality, of evil and good, ALL matters... there is no such thing as The Absolute. im with nietzche and HP on this one, thus my definition is twofold: evil as an absolute, universal, and objective concept does not exist, but evil as defined by society, this IDEA of "something inherently, totally, and irreversibly bad, malicious, violent, homicidal, by nature, birth, and vocation solely meant to harm that which is the opposite of itself". could have pared that down a bit lol but BAM! my own personal definition of this little perpetuated lie.
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Post by jmsn72 on Mar 7, 2009 7:16:48 GMT -6
At the end of the day it's up to us whether the idea of evil even exists or not.Society and cultural philosophies we have little control over.The magician or cultist can only master their own wills or perception.At some point observing alien gods to which humanity is comparable to but a flea, I would think such terms as good and evil would loose relevance entirely.In my opinion, possibility seems more important than trying to put a face to a word as subjective as evil.
There's nothing outside our grasp as far as practitioners are concerned,and being that we seek knowledge of ourselves and define ourselves,what weight could a term such as evil hold?The actions of machines who appear as people is simply that!Nothing they do can have any real feeling or moral designation attached to it because they are asleep.Nothing the self aware can do can have any real moral designation due to the fact that they have transcended a need for such terms or sleeping man concepts right?
So then what is good or evil?There are just actions and reactions.Some showing wisdom and some showing stupidity.All machine can do is react.There are those who by their craft choose to exist behind the cause of causality.Then there are those who simply watch.One would not call the gears of a pocket watch evil,how then can anything in this world be evil?
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Post by B'Lahk'Neeth on Mar 8, 2009 19:55:45 GMT -6
wait what? i hella dont see the line of reasoning behind "pocket watch gears arent evil, hence how can anything else be evil"... ummm... what?
also, i think size or scope or whatever you were trying to illustrate with the alien god analogy is irrelevant. then you get stuck. because think. we are small in comparison to huge alien gods. we think of evil and good. they are huge and we are nothing to them. so why should these thoughts concern them.
but what if fleas look up at us and think the same? i know they're fleas and dont, but this point is not meant to be taken literally so roll with me. now, its obvious that we think of these things so the fleas are wrong. so i wouldnt assume of alien anything to be above our little human dramas. im hoping they are, but i cant know. maybe its a jerry springer kind of universe out there hahaha, and we're the most evolved beings socially out of the lot. boy would that ever be fucking depressing...
your thoughts?
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Post by jmsn72 on Mar 9, 2009 7:25:33 GMT -6
I don't get how you did not understand what I was trying to illustrate.Basically to our infinitessimal knowledge,the gods you all seem to seek are beyond good/and evil.If you indeed seek to become like these gods,isn't it then logical to assume that good and evil will have to become irrelavant to you?
The reasoning behind the pocket watch statement is that no one would call a tiny mechanical object evil or good.In fact its just a pocketwatch so it would be nonsensical to attribute good or evil to it.People are no different than machines or little gears in a machine so calling such objects good or evil is a waste don't you think?They are simply biological mechanisms-a collection of muscles,bones,skin and organs ...nothing more!Liber AO does refer to people who are unaware as mechanical in nature right?
Logically then,a person who has awareness of themselves are no longer just mechanisms or gears in a machine.However,as a result of being aware to one's selves, good and evil become irrelevant.There are only productive (right) or non-productive (wrong) actions.
In short ,the idea of evil is just an abstract concept nonsensical in nature.For what reason would a cultist pay attention to such humbug?
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seeker
Squib
Searching for truth, looking for life
Posts: 4
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Post by seeker on Apr 20, 2009 0:30:08 GMT -6
Although I don't believe in an objective good and evil, it's always been useful for me to define evil as the imposition of will on a non consenting other.
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Post by sin on Apr 23, 2009 9:35:14 GMT -6
wait what? i hella dont see the line of reasoning behind "pocket watch gears arent evil, hence how can anything else be evil"... ummm... what? The gears of the watch serve a purpose. The perception of the 'work' could be subjective, in example: The watch keeps time, and keeping track of time is an evil to a person trying to meet a deadline running out of time. The watch keeps time, the gears run the watch- and it's 'good' to keep time if you need to be on time for an appointment, or are waiting for a specific time for something 'good' to happen. So, if the watch gears are viewed as either 'good' or 'evil' depending... so is anything else. Chocolate is an evil to a fat chick, it's good for one who is not on a diet. The gears themselves are not good or evil, but our perception of the work they do is or isn't.
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Post by apologist1 on Apr 24, 2009 19:40:56 GMT -6
Sin is immaturity because instead of doing what is right in accordance with civilizing principles, sinners please themselves regardless of the consequences, like children. They are caught in what Freud might call the anal phase of development. Typically they need to surround themselves with material possessions - dvds, televisions, rare novelty items, expensive clothing, computer games - as vehicles for hedonistic gratification. This extends to sexual relationships, where people do not concern themselves with personality except where that personality shares a desire for sexual commodification. In sinful sex, man and woman disappear and are replaced by fucktoys. In many ways this is why sin does violence to what might be called a "soul."
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Post by I AM the Way on Apr 25, 2009 14:45:39 GMT -6
i think you should lead by example, Apologist1. do penance for your sins by mowing my lawn.
VS
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Post by Shaz'rahjeem on Apr 25, 2009 22:23:06 GMT -6
i think you should lead by example, Apologist1. do penance for your sins by mowing my lawn.
VS I remember the good old days when people use to reply to Apologist1 with constructive arguments. It would seem people have given up. Either because hes such a wise and strong presence, or they can't bother trying to penetrate a thick hide of dogma and narrow mindedness. I bet on the latter.
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Post by sin on Apr 28, 2009 10:17:19 GMT -6
Sin is immaturity because instead of doing what is right in accordance with civilizing principles, sinners please themselves regardless of the consequences, like children. They are caught in what Freud might call the anal phase of development. Typically they need to surround themselves with material possessions - dvds, televisions, rare novelty items, expensive clothing, computer games - as vehicles for hedonistic gratification. This extends to sexual relationships, where people do not concern themselves with personality except where that personality shares a desire for sexual commodification. In sinful sex, man and woman disappear and are replaced by fucktoys. In many ways this is why sin does violence to what might be called a "soul." You are speaking in terms of 'Sin' in a biblical context. Sin is simply any self-defeating behavior. We don't live for society. We don't live for other people. We live our lives for ourselves, we do what we want, when we want and these 'consequences' are set up by other men, for what purpose exactly? Right, to put us in 'order' with the 'order' established by those that require it. I want chaos. I want to watch the world burn. Hypothetically speaking, I have no reservations about destroying you apologist1, just for fun. Just for kicks. My aim would be to get away with it, not to concern myself with consequences.
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Post by I AM the Way on Apr 28, 2009 13:04:20 GMT -6
i believe that from the Greek, "sin" means missing the mark. since the christian bible's gospels probably refer to gnostic interpretations of the Fourth Way, it's fine to avoid sin. but what is sin really?
yes. Nietzsche would agree that everything that grants us more power is good or virtuous and everything that diminishes our power is bad or sinful. but then, power is also relative... is it not?
VS
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Post by apologist1 on Apr 28, 2009 17:49:14 GMT -6
Your argument:
1: Arbitrarily move by redefinition:
"You are speaking in terms of 'Sin' in a biblical context. Sin is simply any self-defeating behavior.
2: Straw man the redefined position:
"We live our lives for ourselves, we do what we want, when we want and these 'consequences' are set up by other men, for what purpose exactly? Right, to put us in 'order' with the 'order' established by those that require it."
This is why it's tiresome to argue with people on the internet.
Society is predicated upon the social contract into which every person is cultivated. We do not stop at a red light to please others but because we recognise stopping at traffic lights is a correct strategy for functional transportation.
I recommend you read Hobbes, Rousseau, Locke, Bacon, More. Smith, Bentham etc. on the social contract.
I'm sure you understand why this kind of cowardly, sadistic death-wish leaves your view marginalized and despised by those who believe in the capacity for human greatness, strength of character, dignity, intelligence and will.
I hope in time you can come to find value in the subtlety of human achievements; the empathy of Proust, the gentle understanding of Joyce, the vivacity of Beethoven or the poise of da Vinci.
One of the things that fascinates me in the development of what might pass for "spirituality" in America is an observation that new-age and occult beliefs are exactly the kinds of religion you would expect an extremely materialistic society to cultivate. That is, because in quotidian American life, material things are valued to the extent that they are, the - to use a Marxist term - structure (of people's daily life) bears no relationship with the superstructure (scriptural Christianity that is concerned with the poor). Whenever there is a radical severance between structure and superstructure an ideology is in big trouble.
In my view, the challenge of this spiritual detachment is met in two ways. The first is for the hyper-rich, materially successful to reach for something far distant from their agents, drivers, directors, hosts and minders. I think this is why people in Hollywood believe that the world is controlled by intergalactic warlords.
The second way in which this divide between structure and superstructure is met is by deifying the materialistic urge and purging it of the remnants of its deference to Christianity. This leads to movements like LaVeyan Satanism, which - except for aesthetics - has been the implicit, though unacknowledged, dominant ideology of America for the last forty years. Ask yourself: how often have you heard someone say "I've always been a Satanist, I only realised it when I read LaVey"?
This kind of thinking elevates everything in man which is unrefined, lustful, greedy and selfish and ridicules that which is thoughtful, considered, gentle or subtle. These Left Hand Path religions are the death of spirituality because they are the apotheosis of materialist technology and animalistic commodity. Spirituality is not a technology.
Tellingly, because, I think, of the society which birthed them, there is no intellectual grist to these ideologies and, behind aggrandised screen-names and melodramatic portraits there is none of the considered malevolence of a Baudelaire, or the challenging excess of Huysmans. Instead there are squalid and endless debates over rape, child molestation and murder and masturbatory discussions about selfishness and the sexual commodification of women, which incidentally is interesting because this latter topic is not esoteric at all and is something embraced by wider male society.
It saddens me that the complete technological commodofication of things and people holds sway as it does, for it has not always done so, even in America. To paraphrase Emerson in "Nature" - few men can see Nature for the fields, crops and roads. It lingers on the horizon and is glimpsed by the poet. I think this Nature was grasped by Thoreau, in his Walden, Muir in his conservation works and Ives in his concord sonata and represents and authentically alternate American spirituality.
I wouldn't want to deny the thrill of excitement at how "evil" you appear to yourself, but it saddens me to see that a potentially intelligent, attractive person has had something go so sorrowfully wrong that they take pride in boastful, anti-intellectual fear mongering.
I assure you it'll take much more than that to shut me up.
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Post by apologist1 on Apr 28, 2009 17:54:47 GMT -6
i believe that from the Greek, "sin" means missing the mark. since the christian bible's gospels probably refer to gnostic interpretations of the Fourth Way, it's fine to avoid sin. but what is sin really? yes. Nietzsche would agree that everything that grants us more power is good or virtuous and everything that diminishes our power is bad or sinful. but then, power is also relative... is it not?
VS Power for its own sake subverts the will-to-power into the will-to-will. This strips beings of the potential to be what they are and instead makes them show up as commodities before a single man. Who did Oppenheimer quote when he had developed the nuclear bomb? The Vedas: I have become death destroyer of worlds. Schopenhauer realised this by linking Kant's noumena to a single noumenon which unites all things - he called this "the will." This is the origin of the Nietzchean term. It takes more than a superficial reading of 1/2 of Thus Spake Zarathustra to realise this. I recommend Buber's example of the Super-sharing man, Heidegger's lectures on Nietzsche, and the writings of Ernst Junger. Michael Zimmerman has an interesting book on apocalypse, nuclear war and the Nietzschean will-to-power becoming a virulently technological will-to-will. Spirituality and magic are not technologies but disclosive comportments revealing man's relationship to the world, the gods, the earth and the sky.
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Post by I AM the Way on Apr 29, 2009 9:50:02 GMT -6
yeah, Cora'Sahn, you've gotta be more like da Vinci's poise. come on, get with the program!sadly, i'm a moron who has a hard time reading and thinking and... other stuff.
wow, apologist1, you're really trying to out-douchebag yourself these days. i guess i can't ban you because you are trying to be civil, but there's really no point to your being here. right? well, if i'm wrong, then i'm sure you'll let me know. so thanks in advance for schooling me on your need to be here.
VS
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