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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 2, 2010 13:07:44 GMT -6
I'm proposing a small group "classroom" discussion on the Fourth Way book which I just started reading, Creating a Soul by Girard Haven.
While still a bit old fashioned, this is a newer text written by a pupil of an adherent of a disciple of Gurdjieff. Virtually the entire book is a collection of short essays and articles which originally appeared in that school's magazine/newsletter during the 1980's and 90's.
The book is long, but has a succinct feel. I think it would help individuals to go over the material with a handful of students led by at least one Master of The Work. I'll give everyone a week or so to acquire Creating a Soul. After everyone has a copy in hand, we'll begin reading a chapter at a time while thoroughly discussing aspects as we go. Check your local library, used book store, online PDF, or my personal favorite... amazon.com
I know how difficult it is to ask questions when there's no framework to start with; that's why I believe such a small group discussion might be invaluable to those who are struggling to understand this all-important teaching which the Cult of Cthulhu embraces with all three tentacles!
If you're interested, just reply to this thread and/or email me. This "classroom" is limited to 12. First come, first served. So, sign up as soon as possible.
Awake,
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2010 14:34:06 GMT -6
I'm interested ; I order it this evening on amazon.fr
______________________
Remember yourself, for the Emerald Kingdom is at hand!
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Kai'Sigth
Adeptus
Dreaming Herald of the Old Gods
Posts: 32
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Post by Kai'Sigth on Jul 5, 2010 19:39:10 GMT -6
I seek to learn more and all I can about the 4th way. There are a few things I struggle with that I seek to improve.
I'm going to order the book this minute. So count me in, Lord Satanis!
Awake!
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Post by lucofthelight on Jul 7, 2010 5:59:56 GMT -6
Unfortunately I might have to sit this one out until things get better financially. I can't find this book in Australia at all. I can order from Amazon but it's a bit too much with the shipping and exchange rate at this point in time. Also it can take around 3 to 6 weeks to arrive. It looks like a wonderful book and I look forward to getting my hands on a copy in the not too distant future. I wish everyone involved in the discussion group a fruitful experience. It's not a lack of effort from me as I would really be up for it, it's just bad timing.
When the stars are right!
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 7, 2010 11:53:09 GMT -6
It just so happens that I ordered a second volume a couple days ago. If you are truly committed to actively participating in the Creating a Soul discussion group, then send me an email with your address. I'll mail you the book already in my possession asap.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Kai'Sigth
Adeptus
Dreaming Herald of the Old Gods
Posts: 32
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Post by Kai'Sigth on Jul 7, 2010 12:42:11 GMT -6
Amazon.com doesn't like to cooperate with my bank for some reason so I've been searching elsewhere for a copy of the book. I've found a few small book stores that have it, or at least did. When is the discussion group going to begin. I wan to make sure I have a copy and time to start reading.
Awake!
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 7, 2010 13:35:43 GMT -6
The discussion will begin August 1st. That should give everyone ample time to locate and begin reading Creating a Soul by Girard Haven. Every week, there will be assigned reading followed by interactive discussion.
This is a serious undertaking, expect great things from yourself or do not waste the group's time. I have little doubt that by the end, those who have given their all will be rewarded with Fourth Way mastery.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Kai'Sigth
Adeptus
Dreaming Herald of the Old Gods
Posts: 32
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Post by Kai'Sigth on Jul 7, 2010 20:29:55 GMT -6
The discussion will begin August 1st. That should give everyone ample time to locate and begin reading Creating a Soul by Girard Haven. Every week, there will be assigned reading followed by interactive discussion.
This is a serious undertaking, expect great things from yourself or do not waste the group's time. I have little doubt that by the end, those who have given their all will be rewarded with Fourth Way mastery.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
No doubt. I'll give it my all. I'll go a far as to take my own personal notes from the content as well. Which is something I've been meaning to do for a good while now. Thanks for this opportunity. When the stars are right!
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Post by lucofthelight on Jul 15, 2010 2:19:51 GMT -6
The book you sent me arrived today Master Satanis and I am very excited. From looking at the contents I can already tell it is going to be amazing. I will give my all to learning and studying it. It has come at a perfect time as well. I've completed both In search of the miraculous and The fourth way recently so I will begin this one tonight.
Once again, I give my sincere thanks. You are truly awesome!
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
K'ara Kaiul.
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 15, 2010 10:43:32 GMT -6
I'm glad to hear it. Can't wait to get started on the discussion for Creating a Soul by Girard Haven
AHRAEV NUSZETH RITEE! VIB OOLA INHA W'TEEN OT INHA PH'N GLITH!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by ragnafa on Jul 15, 2010 21:32:39 GMT -6
Would love to participate but I can't afford the book right now and can't find a Pdf file on it anywhere....Damn...Awake
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Jul 15, 2010 23:01:34 GMT -6
I'm proposing a small group "classroom" discussion on the Fourth Way book which I just started reading, Creating a Soul by Girard Haven.
While still a bit old fashioned, this is a newer text written by a pupil of an adherent of a disciple of Gurdjieff. Virtually the entire book is a collection of short essays and articles which originally appeared in that school's magazine/newsletter during the 1980's and 90's.
Girard Haven is a high-ranking, known member of the Fellowship of Friends cult, a self-proclaimed Fourth Way school, out of California. The leader of the organization, Robert Earl Burton, has been accused on numerous occasions by several former members for sexual misconduct and manipulation of young men, even settling out of court for a very large sum of money, an allegation of child molestation. The FoF "school" has shaky financial and familial requirements for members and seems to consistently prey upon weak-minded individuals to increase membership and "donations."
I have read through several of Haven's interpretations on "being present" and his faithful devotion to his leader and the school. It is said by many former members that the male students were encouraged to look to Haven and Burton for the prime example of how to act, think, and behave. Deviations from this were considered misguided and delusional.
How can you be any more mechanical than emulating someone else's behavior?
As stated in THE RAPE OF THE MIND: The Psychology of Thought Control, Menticide, and Brainwashing, by Joost A. M. Meerloo, M.D, "Such is the Pavlovian device: repeat mechanically your assumptions and suggestions, diminish the opportunity of communicating dissent and opposition. This is the simple formula for political conditioning of the masses. This is also the actual ideal of some of our public relation machines, who thus hope to manipulate the public into buying a special soap or voting for a special party. The Pavlovian strategy in public relations has people conditioned more and more to ask themselves, "What do other people think?" As a result, a common delusion is created: people are incited to think what other people think, and thus public opinion may mushroom out into a mass prejudice."
Because of my research on the author and his background, I have decided not to participate in the discussion group for his book. While I remain open to philosophical discussions and debate as we journey toward awakening, I cannot support this authors financial gain, and I question his true understanding and application of The Work.
Awake!
AK
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 15, 2010 23:31:27 GMT -6
Yes, I was aware of such unpleasantness. But at the same time, I wouldn't dissuade someone from reading Mein Kampf just because of Nazi atrocities or the National Socialist homogeneous groupthink spawned by Adolph Hitler.
In fact, such books are even more fascinating than the "standard texts" because of their connection to instability... perhaps even madness. I'm quite sure that "proper" Fourth Way schools would discourage members from reading or studying anything I've written.
If there is something deeply disturbing about Creating a Soul, then that will be discussed as well. Of course, this reading group is optional. No one has to participate if they'd rather not. I stopped reading a couple chapters into the book because I didn't want to get too far ahead of everyone. As a whole, the book is still an unknown quantity to me. Soon, that will change for many of us.
AHRAEV NUSZETH RITEE! VIB OOLA INHA W'TEEN OT INHA PH'N GLITH!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by lucofthelight on Jul 16, 2010 1:06:53 GMT -6
Master Satanis, do you have a date in mind for the start of the Creating a Soul study group?
Also, do you have a time decided? I just need to adjust for time differences as I'm in Australia. I think we are about 12 to 14 hours ahead of the US.
I want to make sure I can be there. If it falls into a weird time slot for me I can make adjustments and arrangements beforehand. If I need to leave work early or wake up in the middle of the night I don't care. I just want to be there.
When the stars are right!
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Post by Sarak G'hash on Jul 16, 2010 6:26:57 GMT -6
Master Satanis, do you have a date in mind for the start of the Creating a Soul study group? Also, do you have a time decided? I just need to adjust for time differences as I'm in Australia. I think we are about 12 to 14 hours ahead of the US. I want to make sure I can be there. If it falls into a weird time slot for me I can make adjustments and arrangements beforehand. If I need to leave work early or wake up in the middle of the night I don't care. I just want to be there. When the stars are right! You're quote of..Blessed be the Ones The most Ancient Ones Blessed be the Ones Who were here before And after remain Blessed be The meekness of the flesh For it is written That the future of flesh is of dust I hope you don't mind if I use that for my morning and evening prayer. I love it! Awake!
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Post by Sarak G'hash on Jul 16, 2010 6:30:18 GMT -6
I'm proposing a small group "classroom" discussion on the Fourth Way book which I just started reading, Creating a Soul by Girard Haven.
While still a bit old fashioned, this is a newer text written by a pupil of an adherent of a disciple of Gurdjieff. Virtually the entire book is a collection of short essays and articles which originally appeared in that school's magazine/newsletter during the 1980's and 90's.
The book is long, but has a succinct feel. I think it would help individuals to go over the material with a handful of students led by at least one Master of The Work. I'll give everyone a week or so to acquire Creating a Soul. After everyone has a copy in hand, we'll begin reading a chapter at a time while thoroughly discussing aspects as we go. Check your local library, used book store, online PDF, or my personal favorite... amazon.com
I know how difficult it is to ask questions when there's no framework to start with; that's why I believe such a small group discussion might be invaluable to those who are struggling to understand this all-important teaching which the Cult of Cthulhu embraces with all three tentacles!
If you're interested, just reply to this thread and/or email me. This "classroom" is limited to 12. First come, first served. So, sign up as soon as possible.
Awake,
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
Looking for the pdf now. Awake!
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Kai'Sigth
Adeptus
Dreaming Herald of the Old Gods
Posts: 32
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Post by Kai'Sigth on Jul 16, 2010 10:03:33 GMT -6
Sarak, if you've found a PDF version would you mind pointing me the way? I'll properly go ahead and order an actual copy of the book but would love to have a PDF version I can carry with me on my iPod.
Also, Lord Satanis mentioned that discussions will begin on August 1st. Not sure of the time though.
Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 16, 2010 12:56:11 GMT -6
Since this particular book has been out of print for years, I don't see the author making any financial gain from Cthulhu Cultists and forum members acquiring Creating a Soul. Whether he should benefit or not in the grand scheme of things has yet to be determined. In other words, we should read the man's words before condemning him.
To my knowledge there is no PDF for Creating a Soul. That's one of the reasons I chose this tome for study. The sort of intense work we're going to do with this book requires super-effort; acquiring a physical copy should be the easy part.
Quite right. We will begin on August 1st. However, if you receive your copy early, then by all means start reading it. Some passages will have to be read multiple times. Time is irrelevant in this case. We will be discussing Girard Haven's Creating a Soul by emailed document. I'll write a few paragraphs, then another will write, then another student adds to what has been written, etc. This way nothing gets lost, everything can be considered, and temporal inconveniences won't inhibit our investigation.
By His loathsome tentacles,
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by lucofthelight on Jul 16, 2010 16:47:54 GMT -6
Master Satanis, do you have a date in mind for the start of the Creating a Soul study group? Also, do you have a time decided? I just need to adjust for time differences as I'm in Australia. I think we are about 12 to 14 hours ahead of the US. I want to make sure I can be there. If it falls into a weird time slot for me I can make adjustments and arrangements beforehand. If I need to leave work early or wake up in the middle of the night I don't care. I just want to be there. When the stars are right! You're quote of..Blessed be the Ones The most Ancient Ones Blessed be the Ones Who were here before And after remain Blessed be The meekness of the flesh For it is written That the future of flesh is of dust I hope you don't mind if I use that for my morning and evening prayer. I love it! Awake! Absolutely Sarak, glad you like it. It has a chant like feel. They are lyrics from a Morbid Angel song entitled 'Prayer of Hatred'. It is off the album 'Formulas fatal to the Flesh'.
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Post by lucofthelight on Jul 16, 2010 16:55:50 GMT -6
Awesome, sounds great! This format should work very well. I'm really looking forward to this discussion.
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Jul 16, 2010 18:05:52 GMT -6
Yes, I was aware of such unpleasantness. But at the same time, I wouldn't dissuade someone from reading Mein Kampf just because of Nazi atrocities or the National Socialist homogeneous groupthink spawned by Adolph Hitler. I'm sure that you were aware of Haven's background. However, it's not about the idea of dissuading someone from reading a book. The quest for knowledge is rarely a bad idea.
It is more about the idea that we should all be very aware of the influences we are exposing ourselves to. In their entirety. And it is also a reminder to the other members here that the Fellowship of Friends is a perfect example of why we should never follow a leader, any leader, without questioning their motives and intentions.
Awake!
AK
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 20, 2010 17:25:30 GMT -6
That is why Creating a Soul must be investigated. I don't know of a better way to explore Girard Haven's thinking and influence on the Fourth Way than to actually read and discuss his book.
Let me ask the forum a tangentially related question... is it better to have a flawed leader than no leader at all? To save time, let me define what I mean by leader right now.
(Leadership from Wikipedia)
"process of social influence in which one person can enlist the aid and support of others in the accomplishment of a common task."
"Leadership is ultimately about creating a way for people to contribute to making something extraordinary happen."
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Jul 20, 2010 22:36:54 GMT -6
Let me ask the forum a tangentially related question... is it better to have a flawed leader than no leader at all? To save time, let me define what I mean by leader right now.
(Leadership from Wikipedia)
"process of social influence in which one person can enlist the aid and support of others in the accomplishment of a common task."
"Leadership is ultimately about creating a way for people to contribute to making something extraordinary happen." There is no other leader than a flawed one. No one of us is perfect. If you are going to choose to go outside of yourself in an effort to "contribute to making something extraordinary happen," then you do so either with the intention of being the flawed leader of the group or following the flawed leader of the group. While many of us here strive for perfection in the stereotypical sense of the word, I doubt anyone can say that they are flawless.
The key is that if you are going to put stock in what some other imperfect human is trying to create, then you must do so with the understanding that they ARE human. They can never lead without any limitations because they are human. And we all have our own limitations, some of which we are not even aware of. The only way to overcome any limitation is through self-observation, "work" that is cultivated here in the CoC and that some are already engaged in. It is through this self-observation that we will recognize when a person (leader or otherwise) makes decisions that do not resonate with our beliefs, our awareness, and/or our desires for our environment. Sometimes, the conflict is good; sometimes, it's devastating.
Everyone's awakening process is individual to themselves, even if all share the same end goal. Not everyone will share the same chief features or react negatively to the same stimuli. Most can look past a couple of flaws if the aim is aligned with their own. The importance is to make sure that in our quest towards awakening, we remind ourselves that it is not through the leader or the leader's actions that we will awaken. The leader is there to provide a direction, but it is still an individual choice whether we follow.
My personal belief about leadership is that it's about providing people with the opportunity to learn for themselves. As a leader wanting to cultivate followers, my most effective way to do so without limiting them entirely is to present them with the ideas of the community. Show them resources that describe the ideas I have embraced. Let them read, research, filter, and apply all on their own. The followers that are worth a damn to the organization will then come to me and say, "I want more." When this happens, I have to be prepared to give it to them, or at least be open to the idea of forging new grounds together. I cannot awaken all; I know this already. But my most effective members will be those that do not not blindly follow anyone. Instead, they will follow their own path within the community already established.
Is it better to follow a flawed leader or remain solitary? That's an individual decision. While a leader can provide you with a direction you may have never considered, you may not realize that this new direction could lead you in the complete opposite direction you need to reach awakening.
Awake!
AK
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 21, 2010 0:08:39 GMT -6
That's a bold statement, Apsara Kamalli.
I suppose that could be true, even if perfection is entirely subjective. Couldn't there be some kind of middle ground between flawed and perfect?
By His loathsome tentacles,
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by egodiabolus on Jul 21, 2010 11:03:44 GMT -6
(Leadership from Wikipedia) "process of social influence in which one person can enlist the aid and support of others in the accomplishment of a common task." "Leadership is ultimately about creating a way for people to contribute to making something extraordinary happen." I just want to leave this up there, just in case we need to come back to it.There is no other leader than a flawed one. No one of us is perfect. If you are going to choose to go outside of yourself in an effort to "contribute to making something extraordinary happen," then you do so either with the intention of being the flawed leader of the group or following the flawed leader of the group. While many of us here strive for perfection in the stereotypical sense of the word, I doubt anyone can say that they are flawless. [/color] I think everyone can say "I am flawless". That is the problem. You can say anything about yourself. However, can you back it up with proof through your actions? That is a much trickier prospect. I would go even further. In my opinion, it is unwise to make any proclamation about yourself, it suggests a need to validate an idea of self beyond what actions prove and invites derision from others. It is far wiser simply to "be" whatever you will, and let others make their value judgments and try to qualify and quantify you if it suits them to do so. To you, it should mean very little.
An objective view of self recognizes your personal limits and strengths. Awareness maximizes those strengths and works within those limits. Evolution builds upon those strengths and works to push the limits. The key is that if you are going to put stock in what some other imperfect human is trying to create, then you must do so with the understanding that they ARE human. They can never lead without any limitations because they are human. And we all have our own limitations, some of which we are not even aware of. The only way to overcome any limitation is through self-observation, "work" that is cultivated here in the CoC and that some are already engaged in. It is through this self-observation that we will recognize when a person (leader or otherwise) makes decisions that do not resonate with our beliefs, our awareness, and/or our desires for our environment. Sometimes, the conflict is good; sometimes, it's devastating.
Everyone's awakening process is individual to themselves, even if all share the same end goal. Not everyone will share the same chief features or react negatively to the same stimuli. Most can look past a couple of flaws if the aim is aligned with their own. The importance is to make sure that in our quest towards awakening, we remind ourselves that it is not through the leader or the leader's actions that we will awaken. The leader is there to provide a direction, but it is still an individual choice whether we follow.[/color] This is an important statement. The leader blazes the trail and guides the way, but it is up to the individual to choose to follow or not to follow, and to make that decision not just with the overall path but with each step. There are times and situations when the leader's direction will be absolute; this is true mainly in the first few steps (this is the goal, these are the standards, etc.). A good leader, however, is himself a good follower. A good teacher is also a good student. Leadership recognizes the assets of its subordinates and is always open to a better way, or a willingness to test other ways even if it only satisfies the subordinates need to confirm the leadership's position. The individual remains responsible for their own growth and well-being. A leader who must demand obedience is as opposed to awareness as a subordinate who follows blindly. My personal belief about leadership is that it's about providing people with the opportunity to learn for themselves. As a leader wanting to cultivate followers, my most effective way to do so without limiting them entirely is to present them with the ideas of the community. Show them resources that describe the ideas I have embraced. Let them read, research, filter, and apply all on their own. The followers that are worth a damn to the organization will then come to me and say, "I want more." When this happens, I have to be prepared to give it to them, or at least be open to the idea of forging new grounds together. I cannot awaken all; I know this already. But my most effective members will be those that do not not blindly follow anyone. Instead, they will follow their own path within the community already established.
Is it better to follow a flawed leader or remain solitary? That's an individual decision. While a leader can provide you with a direction you may have never considered, you may not realize that this new direction could lead you in the complete opposite direction you need to reach awakening.
Awake!
AK Those reading the question, "Is it better to follow a flawed leader or remain solitary?" have answered simply by participating in this forum. Even in observing their interest is a manner of "following" the leadership of this organization. The leadership of the Cult of Cthulhu leads only by the consent of its members; any who wish to no longer receive the guidance or inspiration of this organization need only discontinue their participation. Each member is responsible for themselves, and each must determine if the benefits of membership outweigh the potential flaws of its leaders. If and when the day comes that the members feels that the flaws in the leadership are more than can be tolerated, it is my hope that they have benefited from their participation enough to have the strength to blaze their own path in whatever direction they feel best serves them.
Every member here is potentially a leader. A leader who fails to see this is no longer worthy of leadership. A member who does not live up to this potential is wasting their time. It is my observation that we are strong on both fronts. That's a bold statement, Apsara Kamalli. Bold only in its honesty. A leader who would claim to be "perfect" no longer retains an objective vision of self. It is bold because few have the objective vision to admit that flaws exist, both in themselves and in those they look to for inspiration. Seeing the limitations and foibles of another along with their better attributes is the only way to truly appreciate them. I suppose that could be true, even if perfection is entirely subjective. Couldn't there be some kind of middle ground between flawed and perfect? Define perfection. Point to its practical example. When a thing is "perfect", it has no where else to go. It cannot become more "perfect" unless it was imperfect. Perfection is stasis, entropy, nothingness. Give me imperfection. Give me opportunity, potential, evolution. Perfection is an absolute, anything else is flawed. The middle ground is still flawed.
Thankfully, we live in an imperfect universe. Otherwise, why do anything? What would be the need? Our goal is to be ever better, perfection being a process, not a goal...
Isn't it?
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by Sarak G'hash on Jul 21, 2010 11:13:39 GMT -6
(Leadership from Wikipedia) "process of social influence in which one person can enlist the aid and support of others in the accomplishment of a common task." "Leadership is ultimately about creating a way for people to contribute to making something extraordinary happen." I just want to leave this up there, just in case we need to come back to it.There is no other leader than a flawed one. No one of us is perfect. If you are going to choose to go outside of yourself in an effort to "contribute to making something extraordinary happen," then you do so either with the intention of being the flawed leader of the group or following the flawed leader of the group. While many of us here strive for perfection in the stereotypical sense of the word, I doubt anyone can say that they are flawless. [/color] I think everyone can say "I am flawless". That is the problem. You can say anything about yourself. However, can you back it up with proof through your actions? That is a much trickier prospect. I would go even further. In my opinion, it is unwise to make any proclamation about yourself, it suggests a need to validate an idea of self beyond what actions prove and invites derision from others. It is far wiser simply to "be" whatever you will, and let others make their value judgments and try to qualify and quantify you if it suits them to do so. To you, it should mean very little.
An objective view of self recognizes your personal limits and strengths. Awareness maximizes those strengths and works within those limits. Evolution builds upon those strengths and works to push the limits. This is an important statement. The leader blazes the trail and guides the way, but it is up to the individual to choose to follow or not to follow, and to make that decision not just with the overall path but with each step. There are times and situations when the leader's direction will be absolute; this is true mainly in the first few steps (this is the goal, these are the standards, etc.). A good leader, however, is himself a good follower. A good teacher is also a good student. Leadership recognizes the assets of its subordinates and is always open to a better way, or a willingness to test other ways even if it only satisfies the subordinates need to confirm the leadership's position. The individual remains responsible for their own growth and well-being. A leader who must demand obedience is as opposed to awareness as a subordinate who follows blindly. Those reading the question, "Is it better to follow a flawed leader or remain solitary?" have answered simply by participating in this forum. Even in observing their interest is a manner of "following" the leadership of this organization. The leadership of the Cult of Cthulhu leads only by the consent of its members; any who wish to no longer receive the guidance or inspiration of this organization need only discontinue their participation. Each member is responsible for themselves, and each must determine if the benefits of membership outweigh the potential flaws of its leaders. If and when the day comes that the members feels that the flaws in the leadership are more than can be tolerated, it is my hope that they have benefited from their participation enough to have the strength to blaze their own path in whatever direction they feel best serves them.
Every member here is potentially a leader. A leader who fails to see this is no longer worthy of leadership. A member who does not live up to this potential is wasting their time. It is my observation that we are strong on both fronts. That's a bold statement, Apsara Kamalli. Bold only in its honesty. A leader who would claim to be "perfect" no longer retains an objective vision of self. It is bold because few have the objective vision to admit that flaws exist, both in themselves and in those they look to for inspiration. Seeing the limitations and foibles of another along with their better attributes is the only way to truly appreciate them. I suppose that could be true, even if perfection is entirely subjective. Couldn't there be some kind of middle ground between flawed and perfect?[/quote] Define perfection. Point to its practical example. When a thing is "perfect", it has no where else to go. It cannot become more "perfect" unless it was imperfect. Perfection is stasis, entropy, nothingness. Give me imperfection. Give me opportunity, potential, evolution. Perfection is an absolute, anything else is flawed. The middle ground is still flawed.
Thankfully, we live in an imperfect universe. Otherwise, why do anything? What would be the need? Our goal is to be ever better, perfection being a process, not a goal...
Isn't it?
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu Well, I would say that is for sure happening with CoC!!I can see definite improvements in my life now. I'm eating better, improving magical skills, and getting more exercise. In fact, my entire mental frame of mind has improved. My sales of shirts have picked up as well! Awake!
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 21, 2010 12:45:48 GMT -6
I hope it's a matter of individuals being ready to spread their wings and fly of their own accord, rather than CoC leadership flaws becoming intolerable.
Not necessarily. Just because perfection is temporarily out of reach doesn't mean there are flaws. Perhaps we have different definitions of the word flaw? To me, a flaw or flawed being, has a seriously misaligned characteristic which goes well beyond our chief feature. If a person is a temple and that temple is flawed, then I see those flaws as weak pillars. Architecturally speaking, weak pillars means the temple will collapse, sooner or later.
So, I don't see flaws as idiosyncrasies, minor lapses in judgment, personality conflicts, or occasionally missing the mark. In my view, being flawed is a big deal and can mean disaster if not corrected. What's more, a flawed leader would spiritually bankrupt a religious organization.
I would say this world is flawed, that this world is a mistake simply because we can see there is something invariable wrong with it every time we observe ourselves closely. Usually a flaw cannot be corrected or redeemed. A flaw in the crystal that caused it to shatter. Crystallization that includes a flaw will only lead to broken shards in due course.
However, if your definition of flawed includes idiosyncrasies, minor lapses in judgment, personality conflicts, and occasionally missing the mark... then I agree that we are all flawed beings (though I would rather use the word imperfect), up to and including any leader. Even Gurdjieff, Jesus, Neo, and Yoda weren't everyone's cup of tea.
Yes, this whole flawed versus perfect dichotomy is starting to feel very black and white, right and wrong, yes and no. I'm willing to explore the middle ground, and I know that you are as well, to see deeper into it where opportunity and potential are brought to bear in overcoming our inadequacy.
Also... perfection, by its very nature, would not be subject to entropy. But I do think that nothingness can be perfect, such as the void. Aren't we trying to reach that perfect state as part of our Left Hand Path's self-deification?
As you can read above, I believe that perfection is a goal which requires a rigorous, labyrinthine process before it comes about.
AHRAEV NUSZETH RITEE! VIB OOLA INHA W’TEEN OT INHA PH’N GLITH!
Venger As’Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by egodiabolus on Jul 21, 2010 14:21:16 GMT -6
I hope it's a matter of individuals being ready to spread their wings and fly of their own accord, rather than CoC leadership flaws becoming intolerable. Agreed. It is far preferable that our members grow and indulge in their own evolution within or without the CoC. For those who might put too much stock in our weaknesses rather than out strengths, it is my suggestion that the egress is clearly marked and no one will impede your exit. Not necessarily. Just because perfection is temporarily out of reach doesn't mean there are flaws. Perhaps we have different definitions of the word flaw? To me, a flaw or flawed being, has a seriously misaligned characteristic which goes well beyond our chief feature. If a person is a temple and that temple is flawed, then I see those flaws as weak pillars. Architecturally speaking, weak pillars means the temple will collapse, sooner or later.
So, I don't see flaws as idiosyncrasies, minor lapses in judgment, personality conflicts, or occasionally missing the mark. In my view, being flawed is a big deal and can mean disaster if not corrected. What's more, a flawed leader would spiritually bankrupt a religious organization.
I would say this world is flawed, that this world is a mistake simply because we can see there is something invariable wrong with it every time we observe ourselves closely. Usually a flaw cannot be corrected or redeemed. A flaw in the crystal that caused it to shatter. Crystallization that includes a flaw will only lead to broken shards in due course.
However, if your definition of flawed includes idiosyncrasies, minor lapses in judgment, personality conflicts, and occasionally missing the mark... then I agree that we are all flawed beings (though I would rather use the word imperfect), up to and including any leader. Even Gurdjieff, Jesus, Neo, and Yoda weren't everyone's cup of tea. I think this addresses the issue; a misunderstanding of the terms "flawed" and "perfection". "Imperfect" is a far better term than "flawed", as the former indicates a greater potential for correction and change, whereas "flawed" indicates a more chronic state of being. Yes, this whole flawed versus perfect dichotomy is starting to feel very black and white, right and wrong, yes and no. I'm willing to explore the middle ground, and I know that you are as well, to see deeper into it where opportunity and potential are brought to bear in overcoming our inadequacy.
Also... perfection, by its very nature, would not be subject to entropy. But I do think that nothingness can be perfect, such as the void. Aren't we trying to reach that perfect state as part of our Left Hand Path's self-deification? I do not know that it is a "perfect state" that we reach for. Rather, I see it as a state that goes beyond human limitations. Obviously, I have a significantly lower standard for "deity", as any sufficient advancement in any one member of our species or group could make him/her/them appear "godly" by comparison. To be the ultimate determinant in my reality is sufficient. It may not be perfect, but it would be mine.
Also, I have trouble imagining being satisfied. This may be a personal short-coming. One of the things that has turned my off from the idea of "paradise" is the effortless fulfillment of every whim. Without a challenge, I no longer grow as an individual... even as a god. The concept of perfection seems to me to be, well, boring if it where attainable. As you can read above, I believe that perfection is a goal which requires a rigorous, labyrinthine process before it comes about.
AHRAEV NUSZETH RITEE! VIB OOLA INHA W’TEEN OT INHA PH’N GLITH!
Venger As’Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest This, then, will be one of those points where we differ. When perfection is achieved and demonstrated to me, then of course I would need change my opinion. Until then, we both carry on toward evolution.
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 21, 2010 14:48:16 GMT -6
Fair enough, Master Diabolus.
I would appreciate hearing from other Cultists on these matters. Personally, I don't care if you agree or disagree with anyone, but such concepts should be considered. Speak your mind!
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by egodiabolus on Jul 21, 2010 15:05:59 GMT -6
Fair enough, Master Diabolus.
I would appreciate hearing from other Cultists on these matters. Personally, I don't care if you agree or disagree with anyone, but such concepts should be considered. Speak your mind!
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
As always, this is the demonstrated strength of our organization! We may have different views and opinions, but remain united in purpose and vision. Show me another organization of this cailber and character!
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
Ia Ia High Priest Venger As'Nas Satanis!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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