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Post by A'Zodul F'eid on Jul 21, 2010 15:11:33 GMT -6
These conversations are truely delicious. I'm picking up a copy of this book regardless of if the "class" is already booked. This has a look of deeper thought that I've lately just not been in touch with. Much thanks for alerting me of this tome.
Awake!
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Post by lucofthelight on Jul 21, 2010 15:28:34 GMT -6
I see perfection being relative rather than all encompassing. It is possible to achieve a certain perfection to abilities one already has by practice and self development. If one were to be perfect in every way, wouldn't that then be an end to that beings evolution? What more is there to achieve or gain? When perfection has been achieved the pushing of boundaries stops.
Perfection can be attained in certain areas but one person cannot know or do everything. Each has there limits and frame of lifespan to consider. If one attains immortality then there is the chance of perfecting more things, but there will always be something that needs work.
Isn't perfection a subjective thing anyway. If a greater being does something great, then his inferiors could consider it perfect. But to that greater beings superiors it may appear as imperfect compared to their own abilities and further evolved state.
Awake!
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Post by Sarak G'hash on Jul 21, 2010 16:17:55 GMT -6
Perfection can be attained in certain areas but one person cannot know or do everything.
maybe somone should let my family in on that little secret!
Awake!
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Kai'Sigth
Adeptus
Dreaming Herald of the Old Gods
Posts: 32
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Post by Kai'Sigth on Jul 21, 2010 18:34:18 GMT -6
That is why Creating a Soul must be investigated. I don't know of a better way to explore Girard Haven's thinking and influence on the Fourth Way than to actually read and discuss his book.Let me ask the forum a tangentially related question... is it better to have a flawed leader than no leader at all? To save time, let me define what I mean by leader right now.
(Leadership from Wikipedia)
"process of social influence in which one person can enlist the aid and support of others in the accomplishment of a common task."
"Leadership is ultimately about creating a way for people to contribute to making something extraordinary happen."Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
A leader is not someone who is perfect by all means, there is no such thing as perfection as it is all subjective in the eyes of those who view it. Even some of the greatest leaders in history had serious flaws. Take Alexander the Great for example. His lust for conquest nearly lost him his troops, among other things. Now I am no historian and it can be argued that Alexander the Great wasn't much of a leader, but he did create one of the largest empires in ancient history. Usually that takes some sort of leadership skill set to conquer most of Persia. One would think, any way. It doesn't take perfection to make a leader. A leader is someone who offers guidance, who can rally the spirit of those who chose to follow him (or her). Someone with enough confidence to push forward through the difficult times. By no means is a leader to be someone who is perfect (which is impossible, I believe only in death is anyone ever perfect) but someone who has flaws and can either conquer them and learn from them or push them aside enough to guide others. So I believe it is best to have a flawed leader then no leader at all. Leaders are the ones who forge new paths through the mountains, like you High Priest Satanis. FYI; I just got my copy of Creating a Soul in the mail today, so I am ready for the discussion group! Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!
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Kai'Sigth
Adeptus
Dreaming Herald of the Old Gods
Posts: 32
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Post by Kai'Sigth on Jul 21, 2010 19:37:16 GMT -6
Very true.
When it comes to my personal history of studying the Occult and walking the Left-Hand Path, I've usually followed others; "leaders", before coming to the realization (after several organizations that I belonged to crashed and burned, including the dismantling of my own Modern Satanic organization; that's a discussion for another time.) that I would be better off on my own, and perhaps learn more from myself then from others. Also felt I better represented the idea of a Modern Satanism I carried at the time with regards to herd mentality and all that, which in part I still hold true.
However, I've learned that good leaders and worthwhile organizations (such as this one; Ia! Ia!) who actually take themselves seriously can offer a lot of knowledge beyond what I could gather for myself. I find that ideas, conceptions, topics and discussions that I wouldn't run into under my own accord are plentiful in a group of like-minded (the word is loosely used here) and synergetic individuals.
So, I agree, it is best left up to the individual whether or not they chose to follow someone else or whether or not a leader works for them (also left up to certain circumstance as well).
Awake!
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Post by Apsara Kamalli on Jul 21, 2010 20:04:54 GMT -6
Perhaps we have different definitions of the word flaw? Let me clear up my definition of the words flaw and perfect.
From dictionary.com:
"flaw–noun a feature that mars the perfection of something; defect; fault"
From dictionary.com:
"perfect - adjective entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings"
Given this, I don't believe there is an in between. Once perfection has been reached, there is no "work" left to do. I haven't met anyone yet that fits into this definition. I don't think there is anything wrong with that; I don't think there is anything wrong with being human.
Just as with anything else, you can think of it as on a scale: completely flawed on one end and perfection on the other. Of course, there are different degrees, but if you are not completely at the end of perfection, you are still flawed.
As for leadership, I think Kai'Sigth said it best with the following: Thank you, Lord Satanis, for providing us with the opportunity to discuss such important concepts.
Awake!
AK
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 22, 2010 13:11:34 GMT -6
Because of the varying degrees or layers to the word flawed, it might be fruitful to decide on a common understanding regarding Work (4th Way) terminology.
Since Priest of R'lyeh Ego Diabolus has also noticed the tricky nature of these words, I propose that we consider flaw to mean a serious or fundamental defect, a developmental error, or misalignment in our knowledge and being. Conversely, imperfect can be used to reflect the truism that no human being can be considered perfect, in the ideal sense of the word. This middle ground represents the majority of those involved in The Work who are imperfect; neither flawed nor perfect.
Otherwise, the alternative will be to use phrases such as Venger's idea of flawed or flawed in the sense of not being perfect. In the months and years to come, that might grow tiresome.
I agree, once perfection has been reached, work ceases. You haven't met anyone in daily life fitting that description, nor will you. I believe perfection is a thing for a higher dimension or Universe B, not for us. Although, I like K'ara Kaiul's model that perfection is subjective or even relative. That which is superior than us seems "more perfect" than what we are used to or capable of.
Yes, important ideas to consider. I believe perfection, for human beings, means an end to evolution... the final stage.
Thoughts on either terminology or concepts? I'd like to come to some sort of consensus on the former before Monday.
AHRAEV NUSZETH RITEE! VIB OOLA INHA W’TEEN OT INHA PH’N GLITH!
Venger As’Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by I AM the Way on Jul 27, 2010 14:18:44 GMT -6
Those wishing to participate...
1. Begin reading Girard Haven's Creating a Soul.
2. Take notes on what you read.
3. Email me at: Venger.Satanis (at) yahoo.com with "Creating a Soul" in the subject line of your email.
A specific assignment will be given out on August 1st.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
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Kai'Sigth
Adeptus
Dreaming Herald of the Old Gods
Posts: 32
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Post by Kai'Sigth on Jul 27, 2010 17:00:43 GMT -6
Those wishing to participate...
1. Begin reading Girard Haven's Creating a Soul.
2. Take notes on what you read.
3. Email me at: Venger.Satanis (at) yahoo.com with "Creating a Soul" in the subject line of your email.
A specific assignment will be given out on August 1st.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
Lord Satanis, how much should one read and how many notes do you wish for us to take? Is this just a prerequisite to the discussion group for those willing to participate? I'll do as you ask, just hoping for more clarity and elaboration. Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn. Kai'Sigth Adversarial Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu
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Kai'Sigth
Adeptus
Dreaming Herald of the Old Gods
Posts: 32
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Post by Kai'Sigth on Aug 4, 2010 6:14:15 GMT -6
I've been heavily distracted with the task of obtaining a vehicle as well as several other things.
Is there any way I could join the discussion group a little late? I'll do my best to remain undistracted tonight and try and get some notes down from Creating a Soul.
Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!
Kai'Sigth Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by I AM the Way on Aug 4, 2010 10:48:41 GMT -6
I've been heavily distracted with the task of obtaining a vehicle as well as several other things. Is there any way I could join the discussion group a little late? I'll do my best to remain undistracted tonight and try and get some notes down from Creating a Soul. Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn! Kai'Sigth Herald of the Old Gods Cult of Cthulhu Yes, that's fine. Hopefully, I'll get the discussion points emailed out to everyone this afternoon.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by I AM the Way on Sept 5, 2010 21:09:56 GMT -6
Alright, read the next 50 pages of Creating a Soul while taking notes on what you've just read.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by I AM the Way on Sept 15, 2010 13:44:02 GMT -6
"In effect, struggling against something makes it real, for if we knew something was not real - that it was an illusion - what would there be to struggle against?"
This quote came from page 123 of Creating a Soul by Girard Haven. I wanted to open this up to the entire forum. Thoughts?
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by lucofthelight on Sept 16, 2010 2:36:16 GMT -6
"In effect, struggling against something makes it real, for if we knew something was not real - that it was an illusion - what would there be to struggle against?" This quote came from page 123 of Creating a Soul by Girard Haven. I wanted to open this up to the entire forum. Thoughts?
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
I'm thinking that if one struggles with something, that something tends to get a name, a title, therefore the mind is employed in a manner that regards the "thing" as real. This thing could be invisible and illusory to other people such as in situations, subjective suffering's and even objective suffering's but is real for the person who's life it is affecting.
From another angle, let's say from the perspective of the serious gamer. From his perspective playing online games is a very real struggle as the competition to improve and refine techniques and strategies in order to advance to higher ranks is one of several real aims or goals. From the outsider who perhaps doesn't play games, he may be considered a person who is pursuing unreal, illusory leisurely pursuits. So, who is right? Perhaps both.
Thoughts?
K'ara Kaiul Esoteric Wizard of the Terrible Darkness Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by Gish on Sept 16, 2010 4:34:22 GMT -6
"Struggling against something makes it real" I'd agree with this. If your struggling with something it's real, even if that "thing" is something intangible such as a goal in a computer game or an idea in your mind, it's only real to the people whose reality it effects though, people uninterested in games can easily dismiss the struggles of a gamer like K'ara Kaiul has said, to them it's not real.
"If we knew something was not real, that it was an illusion, what would there be to struggle against?" There would be the illusion itself to struggle against, if we are forced to only see the falsehoods then there must be a reason and that is what there would be to struggle against though going with what I've already said that would make the illusion real, so I suppose you'd have to go for the source.
Gish te' Nodroger ? in definite support of the cult of cthulhu
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Post by Sarak G'hash on Sept 17, 2010 6:48:47 GMT -6
"In effect, struggling against something makes it real, for if we knew something was not real - that it was an illusion - what would there be to struggle against?" This quote came from page 123 of Creating a Soul by Girard Haven. I wanted to open this up to the entire forum. Thoughts?
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis High Priest Cult of Cthulhu
This is so very true! The thing is not to let the "something" that we are struggling with totally overtake every aspect of our life. Awake!
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