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Post by egodiabolus on Apr 24, 2010 13:32:20 GMT -6
I am a bit of a bibliophile. I collect books. In my library, I have a number of versions of the Necronomicon, including the entire catalog of books attributed to Simon; The Necronomicon, The Necronomicon Spellbook, Dead Names, and Gates of the Necronomicon. Of all the versions of The Necronomicon, I find the Simon version to be the least true to the work described by HP Lovecraft in his writing. I have also found this text to be the least effective, even with the "corrected" information from Gates.
The power of the Simon Necronomicon, in my experience, has had more to do with its marketing and reputation rather than the value of the materials within it. Like The Satanic Bible, for people who have not read it and have only heard of it, seeing it on a shelf or coffee-table produces an interesting reaction.
I admit that my research has been generally second-hand. The prohibitions against sexual activity required by The Necronomicon not only run counter to my personal philosophy, but would have been detrimental to my own experiments, social and magical. I am always impressed with those individuals who claim to be avid practitioners of the rituals described in The Necronomicon, which require often going without sex for weeks (if not months), at a time.
I imagine that, if such a dry-spell where not by choice, the rituals of The Necronomicon would be appealing if only to help the poor guy or girl get laid!
My second-hand research can be divided into two sources; those who claim to have successfully used The Necronomicon and those who have tried and failed. A common trait of those who found no value in the described rituals (even when applying the various corrections) is that they are what I would consider astute and experienced ritual magicians; they have a verifiable track-record in Occult research. In general, those who do claim to have had success are also those who seem to have the least experience in other systems; misanthropic dabblers with a tendency to fantasize and an anti-social streak.
I suppose it could be argued that The Necronomicon works for them precisely because of these traits; they are not inhibited by the learning and experience of the more astute researchers, and have the required zeal for the work.
Of those who claimed to have had success, I have asked what this success meant. What practical advantage has the successful use of The Necronomicon provided? I have yet to meet an individual who, through use of the Simon Necronomicon, has been rewarded physically, financially, or socially. This is not to say that these are the only measures for success, but even the acquisition of knowledge should translate into some applicable gain. It would be like learning how to build a rocket ship from scraps in a refuse yard but never actually building the device, except in that case you could at least point to the practical value of the rocket ship.
When asked what is to be gained, practitioners tend to be at a loss to describe it. If it is power, insight, knowledge, experience, then when asked to demonstrate it, they fail.
I have had two experiences which are directly connected to The Necronomicon. The first was when I was in the Army. I was assigned living quarters with a new recruit who, after learning about my own occult leanings, revealed his interest in The Necronomicon. I had read and dismissed the Simon Necronomicon, and he wanted me to give it another look. I spent most of my weekends off-base, so we struck a bargain; I would revisit The Necronomicon and he promised that if he successfully opened a gate to another plane of existence that he would leave a note on the door advising me.
One Monday morning, I show up from one of my weekends of debauchery to find a sink full of blood and our quarters trashed. As the senior enlisted member of not only the room but the whole floor, I was responsible for the state of the quarters, so I was more than a little pissed. We typically started the week a few doors down drinking a beer or two before PT (we were idiots), so I went down ready to wear my subordinate like a boot around the post. Ends up that he had attempted to commit suicide over the weekend.
Before you get all teary-eyed, let me explain. He had himself a girl in Frankfurt who just was not that into him. These women we would meet on weekends were generally very free with themselves, but the young man had fallen in love with this particular girl, despite our more experienced advise. He had discovered that she had decided he was too clingy and was already allowing some other guy to play in her panty-party-pad. I suppose I should have seen the signs the Friday night prior when before I left he appeared with a large bag of pills, looking forlorn, and asking if I would mind if he drank the fifth of Jack on my desk, but the girl I was seeing that weekend was only for that weekend and I didn't have any time to waste.
He took some of the pills, drank a good portion of the whiskey, and when that appeared to be going too slowly, he cut his wrist. "Cut" is the operable word here, not slit. The blood in the sink was his, and there was a good deal of it, but not a life-threatening level. The other thing we had as a common interest was art. My room mate had detailed drawings of anatomy as a part of his study, in particular the veins and arteries of the arms and wrists. The mess in the bathroom was not a suicide attempt, but a ritual. His cut was deliberate, he knew exactly what he was doing.
He spent the next month in Frankfurt at a psyche-hospital, being looked after by young, attractive, female nurses and hanging out with the rest of us idiots when we made the trip on weekends. When he came back to the unit, he was on light duty and treated with kid-gloves by every NCO he ran into. Within three months he had been given new orders, hardship duty at a National Guard post back in his hometown. He had full military pay and benefits for the remainder of his two-year contract while sitting behind a desk and eating at his mother's house whenever he wanted.
I suppose one could argue that he successfully used The Necronomicon, but I don't think it was in the manner intended by the author.
My second encounter involved a conversation similar to this, with my denouncing the validity of the Simon Necronomicon, relating the above tale, and challenging an adherent to provide some evidence of The Necronomicon's value.
So, he cursed me. By all the powers at his command, he swore that I would fail in my every endeavor, that I would know naught but pain and suffering, and would die in some horrible manner in the very near (at that time) future.
I probably should not have laughed. I probably should have encouraged the other people at the table not to laugh when I did. I definitely should have felt bad when even his girlfriend laughed at him.
It has been over a decade. I get an occasional cold that I attribute more to allergies on a seasonal basis.
Clearly, I am a little more than skeptical about the validity of the Simon Necronomicon, but I am open to the thoughts and experiences of others. I would be interested in the following:
What is the purpose of the rituals in the Simon Necronomicon?
How does one know when said rituals have been completed successfully?
What are the benefits of the rituals in the Simon Necronomicon?
How have these benefits improved your life in a practical manner (if at all)?
Finally, I would ask what the Simon Necronomicon has to do with the Cult of Cthulhu? I ask this question because, based on what I have read, it is not in line with the Work we are engaged in. It is almost like there are two understandings of the Cult of Cthulhu; one for those who have read the materials and understand what we are doing, and one for those who read the words "Cult of Cthulhu", grabbed their well-worn copy of The Necronomicon, and have decided to go their own way. I recognize that it is my position that the Simon Necronomicon is almost entirely unrelated to the Cthulhu Mythos, but I am willing to be proven wrong in this. Would the adherents care to engage us with answers to these questions and their evidence?
Awake!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by nixx on Apr 25, 2010 9:54:17 GMT -6
I will happily take up the challenge, Ego Diabolus, though I am admittedly relatively new to the work in the Simon Necronomicon, I will be happy to share my experiences thus far. I will start the bottom & address the validity of the system as it relates to the Cult of Cthulhu. One of the main goals of the CoC is personal Awakening through use of techniques from the Fourth Way; the aim of the Necronomicon as an initiatory system is the same. The Gates represent, on one level, parts of the self that most people do not interact with; similar in many respects to Jung's shadow work, or the levels of consciousness related to in many shamanic traditions. The goal of this interaction is the awakening of the kundalini force in a controlled manner which in turn puts the conscious mind in union with the chthonic mind, which is the alien part of us I feel is well represented in Master Satanis' writings as the goal of the work of the Cult of Cthulhu. In other words, the Gates serve to gradually break down the barriers between our sleeping selves & Awakening in a gradual, controlled fashion allowing one to acclimate & resolve those issues within the self that are linked to the energies of each particular gate. As far as how the Simon Nec relates to the Mythos in general, be it a marketing ploy on the part of Hermann Slater or not, if you apply some scholarship, it is very easy to see. If you view the subjects presented in both the Mythos & the Simon Nec metaphorically, which, as we are all aware is the language of the classic grimoires & a tool that Simon himself applied quite readily, many of the same themes are repeated. Cthulhu, for instance, can be seen as a representation of the chthonic mind & which is "dead but dreaming", meaning that we are generally not aware of it on a conscious level, but catch glimmerings of it on a subconscious level. It's "rising" can be seen as symbolic of the kundalini force rising up the spinal column & energy centers to join with the conscious mind. This concept is well written on in most of the Eastern spiritual systems such as Tantra, Taoism, Yoga, etc. As far as practical benefits I've received from working in the system. To give an example, I used one of the sigil in the 50 Names book, being ZIKU, which is said to bring one "hidden treasures" & that week an extra $120. showed up in my paycheck. I hadn't worked any overtime above what is normal for my long week schedule for it & could find no other practical explanation aside from an accounting error which is a feasible hypothesis. Random coincidence, perhaps, but doesn't magick generally behave that way? Could the results be obtained using another system or method? Most assuredly. Did this happy coincidence happen to me while using the Necronomicon system? Yes. So, on that count, draw your own conclusions. I will be happy to take a photograph of that paycheck & one from a similar pay period as proof if you wish. Aside from that, most of my experiences have been internal. A great many issues I've not dealt with have come to the fore after beginning the Initiatory process. I think this is characteristic of most initiatory systems, or it probably should be as this has led me to a greater understanding of myself. This coupled with Fourth Way techniques as described in Cthulhu Cult & Liber A:O have been exactly what I've needed & the systems work hand in hand, as I stated before, toward the same end. Obviously, the proof is in the putting as far as when one knows a ritual is successful. As another example, after living by ourselves for 6 years in a three family house, our new landlord rented out the apartments upstairs & downstairs of us. We were having problems with the neighbor downstairs parking her car in such a way as to make it difficult for me to get in & out of my parking spot & the woman generally had a shitty attitude toward us. We asked her to please park in such a way as to give us room to get out, but she ignored us. I used the "Conjuration of the Fire God" ritual & called my Watcher (which I see as an extension of one's higher self, but draw your own conclusions on that as it is a matter that is debated among those who work with the system). The purpose of the Conjuration of the Fire God is to annihilate any harmful energies that are directed toward you & the Watcher, as I said, is an extension of your Higher Self & executes your will (this is just scratching the surface with the Watcher, but is applicable to my description). The next day, the landlord appeared out of the blue & told her to park her car so we could get out, even though he'd not been informed of the incidents & since then, we've had absolutely no problems with her & in fact, our relations with her have been extremely amicable. Again, coincidence? Sure, but I merely describe the circumstances as they happened which involved the Necronomicon. I have to laugh at the two examples you have given, as they are funny. It is obvious that these people you describe had no idea what the hell they were doing or what the system is actually for. It sounds like they took the book literally instead of seeing beyond the "hype" into what it was really saying. I am by no means an expert, & as I stated before, I've only just started working in the system, but I've found it to be like nothing I've ever worked with before. I would like to share with you a link to a blog written by the gentleman that's been mentoring me through the system. I think a good deal of the evidence you are looking for will be found in the articles therein & I'm sure the author, Warlock Asylum, would be more than happy to engage you in a discussion on the subject. Here is the link... warlockasylum.wordpress.com/I'll be posting more in this discussion & am very excited about it. Thanks for putting this thread up, Ego Diabolus! When the Stars are Right!
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Post by egodiabolus on Apr 25, 2010 17:42:48 GMT -6
Thanks for your response. It was very insightful, and I can tell you are passionate about the subject, so as I dig into it, keep in mind our goal of either validating the Necronomicon as worth further pursuit or not.
Again, our focus here is the Simon Necronomicon. The reason for this is because it is the more familiar and most popular of the Necronomicon texts. Once we have sufficiently discussed this version, we can move on to other versions.
Also, we should consider that some of the material may be valuable while some may not. It is not my intention to throw out what may be profitable should a portion of the text prove to be garbage.
As you state; “one of the main goals of the CoC is personal Awakening through use of techniques from the Fourth Way”. Our process is akin to that of the Fourth Way, but with some distinct differences. I do not, however, see the connection you draw between the Necronomicon and the Forth Way. The Forth Way encourages Awakening through internal and self-guided processes; observation and remembrance. An external method, like a ritual from any resource such as the Necronomicon, may give us a glimpse of our potential, but cannot be relied upon as a method in the Work. Doing so would be akin to trying to achieve an Awakened state through the use of something like Salvia; you get a glimpse but are unable to really use it.
I can see the connection you describe between the gates and Jungian archetypes, but this is conjecture, and we must focus on the material as it is presented. The stated intent of each gate ritual is for the magician to receive certain instruction (the initiation you describe) which will allow him to proceed to the following gate for further instruction. The purpose of this process is to make the magician a guardian of these gates, to keep out the forces beyond those gates. The danger of the process is that in traversing the gates to acquire knowledge, the magician risks being consumed by those forces (or convinced to betray the intent of the author and join with those forces).
The question I would put forth is if this danger exists, and the process of releasing these forces into our world can be purchased at every Barnes and Noble in the country, why has it not happened yet? Either no one has ever successfully traversed all the gates (at least with the intent of opening them) or it is a fairy-tale.
The theory that the intent is to awaken the kundalini force and achieve union with the Cthonic mind is, again, interesting, but now a stated part of the Simon Necronomicon. I would consider performing a ritual with the intent to break down the barriers between our sleeping and awakened selves as counter-productive; better instead to just work to remember the self and strive to observe than to rely on a mechanical process. Also, this is reaching for a reason for the Simon Necronomicon materials that are outside the stated purpose for those materials. If I give you a hammer with a 2” handle, and tell you it is for hammering nails, and you find that it doesn't serve to hammer nails at all but does make a good paper-weight, it does not serve us to praise it for its value as a paper-weight and ignore its failure to do what it was intended to do. A person can make a lesson out of anything, but that doers not mean it has value.
The connection between the Simon Necronomicon and the Mythos created by HP Lovecraft can also not be based on conjecture. We can not “apply some scholarship” or deal in metaphor. Either the connection exists or it does not. Metaphorically, I can establish connections between a Betty Crocker cookbook, and the Cthulhu Mythos or any other random text. Any real connection between the two is cursory at best, and does suggest a strategy for passing off a loose version of Sumerian Magic as something more familiar and marketable.
Metaphor has its place, but awakening is not a matter of dealing with the metaphor of the self or the metaphor of reality, it is about discovering what is real. Putting more layers between the self and that reality is, again, counter-productive. Following the concept of a metaphorical interpretation, the problem we encounter is that the metaphor you describe is not consistent with the Simon Necronomicon. These forces which you suggest are metaphors for our sleeping state and awakened minds are admonished and opposed in the Simon Necronomicon. The Mad Arab does not want you to discover Cthulhu (the cthonic mind you suggest Cthulhu metaphorically represents), but to oppose it and keep it locked outside. If your interpretation is accurate, then the Simon Necronomicon encourages us to remain asleep and keep our awakened self unrealized.
Again, we must work with the materials as they are, not what we would wish them to be.
Your practical example, using the sigil ZIKU to gain a small windfall, might suggest that this name has some influence on financial matters. However, we have no way of knowing if you would have gotten those funds without the use of the sigil, or with the use of another sigil. A proper test would to be to take 10 people, and to give 8 of them sigils. 4 of the people have the ZIKU sigil, 4 have some other sigil, and two are given blank pieces of paper. These two represent our control samples. We then give it a month, and see what happens. Until such an experiment is performed, we have to assume that the ZIKU sigil was just the focus of your desire, and that your wishful thinking had more to do with the windfall than the sigil. Magic generally behaves that way.
Now, this is not to say that it doesn't work. It clearly works for you, but for all intents and purposes we could insert any other symbol in place of “ZIKU sigil” and “Necronomicon” and have the same faulty argument. If you were a Christian, it might be “Saint Peter” and “The Bible”. I would theorize that it was your belief in the value of the sigil and not the power of the sigil itself that was more at work here. That means the most we can conclude that it helps to wish through a focus of any kind; research abounds supporting that idea. This does not validate the Simon Necronomicon. To be valid, the Simon Necronomicon and its symbols would have to out-perform what we can expect from the general principle of using a focus for wish-fulfillment.
“The Conjuration of the Fire God” is not given a purpose in the Simon Necronomicon, though it is clearly a curse against one's enemies. The Watcher is clearly defined in the Simon Necronomicon on pages 69-70 as “a Race different from that of Men and yet different from that of Gods...” The idea that this being is a manifestation of the “higher self” also opposes the concepts of the Work. In the Work, the “higher self” is yet undeveloped and undiscovered, and can only be discovered through self-exploration and conscious development. If the higher self could simply be ordered to manifest, then the Work would have no purpose.
Just to be fair, I want to be certain that this is the spell you used to make your neighbor more amiable and conscientious of her neighbors parking needs:
Spirit of the Fire, Remember! GIBIL, Spirit of the Fire, Remember! GIRRA, Spirit of the Flames, Remember! O God of Fire, Mighty Son of ANU, Most terrifying among Thy Brothers, Rise! O God of the Furnace, God of Destruction, Remember! Rise Up, O God of Fire, GIBIL in Thy Majesty, and devour my enemies! Rise up, O God of Fire, GIRRA in Thy Power, and burn the sorcerers who persecute me! GIBIL GASHRU UMANA YANDURU TUSHTE YESH SHIR ILLANI U MA YALKI! GISHBAR IA ZI IA IA ZI DINGIR GIRRA KANPA! Rise up, Son of the Flaming Disk of ANU! Rise up, Offspring of the Golden Weapon of MARDUK! It is not I , but ENKI, Master of the Magicians, who summons Thee! It is not I, but MARDUK, Slayer of the Serpent, who calls Thee here now! Burn the Evil and the Evildoer! Burn the Sorcerer and the Sorceress! Singe them! Burn them! Destroy them! Consume their powers! Carry them away! Rise up, GISHBAR BA GIBBIL BA GIRRA ZI AGA KANPA! Spirit of the God of Fire, Thou art Conjured! KAKKAMMANUNU!
Seems to be a bit over-kill, does it not? “Burn the Evil and the Evildoer! Burn the Sorcerer and the Sorceress! Singe them!Burn them! Destroy them! Consume their powers! Carry them away!”... a bit harsh for someone who just parks like an asshole. Also, how does this cause your neighbor to be nicer? It would appear that the stated intent would be that your neighbor was destroyed.
We need to work with the materials as they are, not as we wish them to be.
I am not suggesting that the book, or any book of magic/religion be taken literally, but “Burn the Evil and the Evildoer!” is a far cry from “end my neighbors unjust behavior”. Even as metaphor, we should expect more from the use of the material than coincidence. In order to be valid, we have to establish that the cause of what we accomplish through its use is the materials themselves, and not coincidence. If 51% of the people look at what you are doing with the Simon Necronomicon and say that it has to be the spells and not coincidence, then you are on to something. I have also always wondered why people who engage in ritual look at small results as proof of success. You got $120, but why not a million? Your neighbor's behavior changed, but why not get a new neighbor? The examples we need are the ones that are consistent and measurable. For example, the Simon Necronomicon offers the following spell
To Win the Love of a Woman (chant the following three times over an apple or a pomegranate; give the fruit to the woman to drink of the juices, and she will surely come to you.) MUNUS SIGSIGGA AG BARA YE INNIN AGGISH XASHXUR GISHNU URMA SHAZIGA BARA YE ZIGASHUBBA NA AGSISHAMAZIGA NAMZA YE INNIN DURRE ESH AKKI UGU AGBA ANDAGUB! There is no metaphor or innuendo here. Where are the people that consistently use this spell to get the girl they desire? Granted, it is a pretty typical love-spell... I mean, what woman not already interested in you would accept anything to eat or drink from you? Sure, you might be able to sneak some fruit into a woman's refrigerator or something, but even then you are already familiar with her. These kind of spells just bolster the confidence of the would-be lover and create an excuse for the two people to interact.
But, you get what I am saying. The claims made by adherents of the Simon Necronomicon are worthy of greater scrutiny, we should expect more solid evidence to support them, and we should not rely on metaphorical interpretations. Simon, in all his books since, has insisted on the real, not metaphorical, value of the information.
I am not demeaning the value of your efforts. It just appears that your efforts are using the material in the Simon Necronomicon piece-meal and out of context. Your system may be valid, but it suggests the Simon Necronomicon itself is invalid.
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by warlockasylum on Apr 25, 2010 19:17:17 GMT -6
Greetings! I am sure many people may be familiar with my blog: www.warlockasylum.wordpress.com I found the comments in this discussion a little interesting. First, I would like to say that I have received many benefits from working with the Simon Necronomicon, both in ways of income in the job world and even improving my health. I find the system to a very useful tool in self-initiation. However, I must say that it is a closed system wherein the Initiate is best instructed by an experienced practitioner at first. For example, you mentioned in your initial post the following: "I am always impressed with those individuals who claim to be avid practitioners of the rituals described in The Necronomicon, which require often going without sex for weeks (if not months), at a time." What makes you think that the abstinence of sex is required and not a metaphor for a certain practice? You also made mention of the Fire God's use of the term evildoer. What is interesting about this, is that in the discovered Assyrian tablets of Nineveh..this is exactly how the conjurations were red when they translated them. In a lot of Ancient Mesopotamian literature concerning exorcisms, the phrase Burn the Evildoer..is repeated throughout various parts of the text. The "love spells" that appear in the Book of Calling are not love spells to enchant someone, there are three of them, which reflect the three aspects of the Sacred Marriage Rite, this is what is meant in the Simon Necronomicon by "worshipping at the Temple of Ishtar." What I find amazing in discussion like these is, what is to be gained by the inquirer who is not practicing the system. I can easily see how the work in the Simon Necronomicon relates to the Fourth Way after having practiced both and thoroughly, but if your not acquiring knowledge for your own work, its like idle talk, similar to a virgin trying to debate what sex is about with people who have sex. One of the intentions of the work is to gain an accurate understanding of the emotional being. Man has many instruments to measure the physical body and even some reactions of the brain, but our emotional self was always measured and calculated by mystical practices and this is how we gain a true knowledge of ourselves. Logical topics are good and one should keep abreast in this aspect. However, regardless of how logical a person may sound, or what he says concerning what he/she will or will not do, this may differ behind closed doors when no one is looking, as this person may become a victim to desire. This is where the difference between the initiated and uninitiated come into play. The initiated is aware of their emotional interactions with varying circumstances because for seven months and through seven gates they have spent time learning about their emotional being since Gate-Walking and its energetic influences will directly effect the emotional body. You can ask any Gate-Walker this question and they will all agree regardless of the previous mystical and magical experiences. Thi aslo means that the Gate-walker is aware of their inner machine and this reflects heavily to other aspects of the work. I would imagine that this may be difficult for you to understand if you have not experienced what Walking through a Gate is like. Yet I find it quite irrational for one to question the experiences of others just because the questioner has bot experienced the effects of the Necronomicon Tradition. I would also like to state that a lot of negativity has been associated with the Simon Necronomicon, since it is an independent manual. It is not associated with a religion of a group. Therefore, many organization to keep its membership numbers alive will debunk the book because it may threaten the organization's growth if it is a real source of enlightenment, n lack of a better word. You mean out of all the bull++*t grimoires around, everyone picks on the Simon Necronomicon, but yet they do not understand it. I think the word for that is called ignorance. I enjpyed reading your post and will answer some of the questions you have listed. I must also state that I will probably make no follow-up posts behind this one since, there is quite a bit of information you can research on my blog page. Thank you very much for posting this though. You are a very good writer. 1) What is the purpose of the rituals in the Simon Necronomicon?The rituals in the Simon Necronomicon are designed for proper initiation and practice of the system. It is the alchemical treaty on immortality. The system is designed as it is complete and the Initiate can find and use the text in all aspects of life. Most of the text is a mystical practice. About 25% of the tome requires ritual. 2) How does one know when said rituals have been completed successfully?One knows if they have successfully completed a ritual because they will receive a direct answer from the deity, or an event, epiphany, will reveal itself in the waing state. I remember when I began to learn of the work with Venus Satanis. I did an interview with her that appears on my blog page. Anyway, Venus had got in-between a debate that Dan Harms and I were having. I felt little remorseful in my reply to her, so I decided to Interview her and she could gain some exposure. I emailed her about doing the Interview, and she replied just before I left work stating that she would be glad to do the Interview. I told nobody about my decision to Interview her. An hour later I was waiting for my girlfriend to get out of work. I decided to wait in Barnes and Noble. I went to the occult section just browsing through some books, and an older man approached me. He shod some books to read and mentioned that he brough five Necronomicons earlier in the week. So i know I am talking with Ishtar since her number is 15, but was also connected with five like in Ifa, Oshun...then my girlfriend texts me that she's leaving work. I told the man that I was leaving and he said "wait, i just wanted to tell you that i think you an Venus Satanis should do some work together." This is one example of how the deities will let you know what you need to know. 3) What are the benefits of the rituals in the Simon Necronomicon?The benefits from working with the rituals lay heavily on the Initiate's intent, but in all the people I have shared the system with all of them are clairvoyant to the point that their former friends and family have noticed. All of them. Secondly the system help balance the person's life spiritually and materially. I work at Lehman Brothers, but my whole department was laid off including my boss, and a lot of it had top do with my practices with the tome. Yes Lehman Brother is still running since it takes several years for litigation 4) How have these benefits improved your life in a practical manner (if at all)?The pratioces have helped me become a better father. When you conjure the Watcher (kundalini) you begin to see yourself through the watcher's eyes. This is self-observation. You become aware of your thoughts, emotions, and you begin to see how ugly you are. How we have a way of justifying our perceptions and beliefs, but since the Watcher is so stellar, it is almost a look at ourselves through an alien. To see how we really appear to the world and in the world. Now for someone who is suck on the ego. then this is dangerous since many people collapse than see themselves for what they really are and this is why there are many warnings in the SN. I began to understand some of my son's issues because I was forced to reflect on my own. It seemed like everyone I had taught the system to had an issue in life that was relative to myself and seeing it on the outside in other's peoples lives helped me learn how to handle it. For example, I grew up as a Jehovah's witness and currently three of my students are ex-Jehovah's witnesses. I didn't know these people untill two years past. Interestingly, one woman was married to my father's bestfriend brother. Ijust found this out last Sunday. One of the ex-JW's has a daughter who is marreid to a Moor and his last name is Bey. My surname is Bey and my grandfather was a Moor.. I have gained a greater understanding of life and its meaning. I understand my place in the world and how it works on all levels and still when I open up the Simon Necronomicon I still learn something new everyday Be Well
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Post by egodiabolus on Apr 25, 2010 21:58:00 GMT -6
I want to make clear my intentions with this thread before continuing onward. The Cult of Cthulhu draws from several sources; mainly Satanism, the Fourth Way, and the works of HP Lovecraft, though it is not limited to these sources and most certainly has its own methods. It is a mistake to infer a connection between the Cult of Cthulhu and the Simon Necronomicon or any other version of the Necronomicon based on the CoC's Lovecraft Mythos basis. As I continue to suggest, the Simon Necronomicon has very little to do with the Lovecraft Mythos, and therefore very little relevance to the Cult of Cthulhu. In the interest of Occult research, I am all for exploring the Simon Necronomicon, and I am open to the possibility that sufficient evidence would change my opinion.
What will no doubt appear to be my being argumentative is in fact just a pursuit of understanding. As per our work, we accept no given statement as factual without at first confirming it for ourselves; this means these ideas need to be tested. Ambiguity, conjecture, and metaphor either have to have a purpose related to the whole or be rejected.First, I would like to say that I have received many benefits from working with the Simon Necronomicon, both in ways of income in the job world and even improving my health. I find the system to a very useful tool in self-initiation. However, I must say that it is a closed system wherein the Initiate is best instructed by an experienced practitioner at first. The material Simon presents in all four books; The Necronomicon, the Necronomicon Spellbook, Dead Names, and Gates of the Necronomicon, never presents the material as initiatory, but rather as a complete system. Furthermore, Simon does not suggest the need for instruction by someone more experienced. Simon presents the material for anyone who cares to explore it. Being lead by someone with more experience is always a good idea, but only if their experience can be substantiated and their expertise validated.For example, you mentioned in your initial post the following: "I am always impressed with those individuals who claim to be avid practitioners of the rituals described in The Necronomicon, which require often going without sex for weeks (if not months), at a time." What makes you think that the abstinence of sex is required and not a metaphor for a certain practice? In the Simon Necronomicon, under the section The Book of Entrance, pg.37:
"Know that thou must keep purified for the space of one moon for the Entrance to the first Step, one moon between the First and the Second Step, and again between the Second and Third, and so on in like manner. Thou must abstain from spilling thy seed in any manner for like period of time, but thou mayest worship at the Temple of ISHTAR, provided thou lose not thine Essence. And this is a great secret."
Show of hands, folks... if it is not saying "no sex", is it clearly saying "no ejaculation"? In the Army, we often referred to doing something meaningless or trivial as "masturbating without the satisfaction of getting off". I have heard the theory kicked around that a person can engage in sexual activity while preparing for this or other rituals without ejaculation (which for many would also mean without orgasm). I am not suggesting that abstinence is impossible, but definitely unnecessary in ritual work. Are you suggesting that this clear admonishment to refrain from ejaculation is a metaphor for something else? You also made mention of the Fire God's use of the term evildoer. What is interesting about this, is that in the discovered Assyrian tablets of Nineveh..this is exactly how the conjurations were red when they translated them. In a lot of Ancient Mesopotamian literature concerning exorcisms, the phrase Burn the Evildoer..is repeated throughout various parts of the text. Again, what is being discussed is the Simon Necronomicon. Sticking to the material we are studying, we have to conclude that the "Conjuration of the Fire God" is a curse with an intent to do more than end another person's bad behavior. My statement was suggesting that the use of this curse to stop a neighbor from parking in a manner that inconvenienced others is over-kill, and that the intended effect of the curse was not what was evident in the results that Daera'La'Iyath attributed to its use.
It sounds like a very good curse, but a curse none the less.
The Simon Necronomicon may draw its sources from Ancient Mesopotamia, but the Cult of Cthulhu looks to the Mythos of HP Lovecraft. This goes to the purpose of this thread.The "love spells" that appear in the Book of Calling are not love spells to enchant someone, there are three of them, which reflect the three aspects of the Sacred Marriage Rite, this is what is meant in the Simon Necronomicon by "worshipping at the Temple of Ishtar." Just to be clear, the lovespell mentioned on pg. 111 of the Simon Necronomicon is not mentioned in conjuction with ISHTAR. It is also the only lovespell mentioned in my copy of the text, published by Avon Books in 1980 (though this particular copy may be a later edition). What pages would I find the other two lovespells on?
What I find amazing in discussion like these is, what is to be gained by the inquirer who is not practicing the system. I can easily see how the work in the Simon Necronomicon relates to the Fourth Way after having practiced both and thoroughly, but if your not acquiring knowledge for your own work, its like idle talk, similar to a virgin trying to debate what sex is about with people who have sex. I cannot easily see how the Simon Necronomicon relates to the Fourth Way. What you can easily see you should also be able to easily explain. If you would, please quote a portion of the Simon Necronomicon that supports your suggestion, feeling free to illustrate those connections in as much detail as possible.
There is no need to be defensive, my motives are quite clear. I am an officer of this institution. There seems to be an inordinate interest in the Simon Necronomicon amongst some few but vocal members of this forum, who I believe have mistakenly drawn a connection between the Cult of Cthulhu and the Simon Necronomicon through the Lovecraft Mythos.
You are also quite mistaken to assume that I am not versed in the Necronomicon. I have studied these materials and reached different conclusions. I am open to the possibility that I am incorrect, I hope you are not suggesting that your interpretation is the only possibility.
Based on your statements and the statements made by Daera'La'Iyath, it seems clear that you are adherents to a system that uses the Simon Necronomicon as its foundation, but goes beyond that material, drawing from other sources and reaching conclusions that often oppose the information in the Simon Necronomicon. For example, Daera'La'Iyath suggests the intent of transversing the gates is to join the cthonic mind, represented by Cthulhu, with the conscious mind. The Mad Arab, however, admonishes against opening these gates for the purpose of rousing Cthulhu.
Again, this is focusing purely on the material presented in the Simon Necronomicon. I am not saying that your system is invalid, but it is not the system presented in the Simon Necronomicon, and may not be a system relevant to the efforts of the Cult of Cthulhu.One of the intentions of the work is to gain an accurate understanding of the emotional being. Man has many instruments to measure the physical body and even some reactions of the brain, but our emotional self was always measured and calculated by mystical practices and this is how we gain a true knowledge of ourselves. Logical topics are good and one should keep abreast in this aspect. However, regardless of how logical a person may sound, or what he says concerning what he/she will or will not do, this may differ behind closed doors when no one is looking, as this person may become a victim to desire. This is where the difference between the initiated and uninitiated come into play. The initiated is aware of their emotional interactions with varying circumstances because for seven months and through seven gates they have spent time learning about their emotional being since Gate-Walking and its energetic influences will directly effect the emotional body. You can ask any Gate-Walker this question and they will all agree regardless of the previous mystical and magical experiences. Thi aslo means that the Gate-walker is aware of their inner machine and this reflects heavily to other aspects of the work. I will assume that this statement is in relation to your system. It is not stated in the Simon Necronomicon.I would imagine that this may be difficult for you to understand if you have not experienced what Walking through a Gate is like. Yet I find it quite irrational for one to question the experiences of others just because the questioner has bot experienced the effects of the Necronomicon Tradition. Again, you assume much. I am not questioning anyone's experiences. Like any other process, to validate that process it must demonstrate a measurable change and must follow a manner that is demonstrable and repeatable by others. Your system may have those qualities, but it continues to be a system that uses the material within the Simon Necronomicon in a manner and context not described by its author. There is nothing inherently wrong with this; our own system is only based on the work of others and stretches beyond it. This thread questions the validity or invalidity of the Simon Necronomicon, not the system you may have developed in relation to that text. It is beginning to appear that this "tradition" or "system" to which you are an adherent is what you may feel is in question. I am sticking to the stated purpose of this thread and the text of the Simon Necronomicon.
If your research leads to material outside it, it should be a simple matter of quoting a passage from the Simon Necronomicon and then demonstrating how it directly relates (not through inference or metaphor) to a text outside it which supports an interpretation beyond the obvious meaning or of the words.
I find it irrational to make a claim, and then when asked to give evidence to support that claim, find it irrational that another might make such a request.
No doubt, you are passionate about your system, and I respect and appreciate that passion. This appears, however, to have less and less to do with both the stated intent of this thread and the Cult of Cthulhu, in my opinion. I would also like to state that a lot of negativity has been associated with the Simon Necronomicon, since it is an independent manual. It is not associated with a religion of a group. Therefore, many organization to keep its membership numbers alive will debunk the book because it may threaten the organization's growth if it is a real source of enlightenment, n lack of a better word. You mean out of all the bull++*t grimoires around, everyone picks on the Simon Necronomicon, but yet they do not understand it. I think the word for that is called ignorance. I enjpyed reading your post and will answer some of the questions you have listed. I must also state that I will probably make no follow-up posts behind this one since, there is quite a bit of information you can research on my blog page. Thank you very much for posting this though. You are a very good writer. The Simon Necronomicon is by no means a threat to the Cult of Cthulhu, or in my opinion any other organization. It is another grimoire, another text, and will either have use or not. Its relative use will very from organization to organization. Since we are the Cult of Cthulhu, it is easy to make the mistake that we somehow look to the Simon Necronomicon or any other Necronomicon as a resource. I know that I made this assumption initially, and that other have assumed this connection as well when I discussed the Cult of Cthulhu. My research and experience, both with the Simon texts and with the Cult of Cthulhu, suggests that any connection is tenuous at best, if not non-existent.
Christians also look at their grimoire and its many interpretations as a "real source of enlightenment", and also chalk-up any suggestion to the contrary by outside parties as a lack of experience with the material. If I were to but "walk with God", I might have a better understanding, in their opinion. This, they too call "ignorance" regardless of how thorough the familiarity with the material may be. I suppose, since I can quote your scripture, but choose not to walk your path, I am either ignorant, or the Devil.
You've stated you will not respond to this post, so we will have to leave it to others to weigh the strength of our words. Again, I admire your passion, but I see a distinct separation between your system and the text upon which it is based. It is the text, not your system, which I am here to discuss. 1) What is the purpose of the rituals in the Simon Necronomicon?The rituals in the Simon Necronomicon are designed for proper initiation and practice of the system. It is the alchemical treaty on immortality. The system is designed as it is complete and the Initiate can find and use the text in all aspects of life. Most of the text is a mystical practice. About 25% of the tome requires ritual. 2) How does one know when said rituals have been completed successfully?One knows if they have successfully completed a ritual because they will receive a direct answer from the deity, or an event, epiphany, will reveal itself in the waing state. I remember when I began to learn of the work with Venus Satanis. I did an interview with her that appears on my blog page. Anyway, Venus had got in-between a debate that Dan Harms and I were having. I felt little remorseful in my reply to her, so I decided to Interview her and she could gain some exposure. I emailed her about doing the Interview, and she replied just before I left work stating that she would be glad to do the Interview. I told nobody about my decision to Interview her. An hour later I was waiting for my girlfriend to get out of work. I decided to wait in Barnes and Noble. I went to the occult section just browsing through some books, and an older man approached me. He shod some books to read and mentioned that he brough five Necronomicons earlier in the week. So i know I am talking with Ishtar since her number is 15, but was also connected with five like in Ifa, Oshun...then my girlfriend texts me that she's leaving work. I told the man that I was leaving and he said "wait, i just wanted to tell you that i think you an Venus Satanis should do some work together." This is one example of how the deities will let you know what you need to know. 3) What are the benefits of the rituals in the Simon Necronomicon?The benefits from working with the rituals lay heavily on the Initiate's intent, but in all the people I have shared the system with all of them are clairvoyant to the point that their former friends and family have noticed. All of them. Secondly the system help balance the person's life spiritually and materially. I work at Lehman Brothers, but my whole department was laid off including my boss, and a lot of it had top do with my practices with the tome. Yes Lehman Brother is still running since it takes several years for litigation 4) How have these benefits improved your life in a practical manner (if at all)?The pratioces have helped me become a better father. When you conjure the Watcher (kundalini) you begin to see yourself through the watcher's eyes. This is self-observation. You become aware of your thoughts, emotions, and you begin to see how ugly you are. How we have a way of justifying our perceptions and beliefs, but since the Watcher is so stellar, it is almost a look at ourselves through an alien. To see how we really appear to the world and in the world. Now for someone who is suck on the ego. then this is dangerous since many people collapse than see themselves for what they really are and this is why there are many warnings in the SN. I began to understand some of my son's issues because I was forced to reflect on my own. It seemed like everyone I had taught the system to had an issue in life that was relative to myself and seeing it on the outside in other's peoples lives helped me learn how to handle it. For example, I grew up as a Jehovah's witness and currently three of my students are ex-Jehovah's witnesses. I didn't know these people untill two years past. Interestingly, one woman was married to my father's bestfriend brother. Ijust found this out last Sunday. One of the ex-JW's has a daughter who is marreid to a Moor and his last name is Bey. My surname is Bey and my grandfather was a Moor.. I have gained a greater understanding of life and its meaning. I understand my place in the world and how it works on all levels and still when I open up the Simon Necronomicon I still learn something new everyday Be Well Clearly, your responses are related to your system, of which I am obviously unfamiliar with and am therefore not in a position to discuss. I stand by my statement, these answers also have little to nothing to do with the stated intent of this thread. Your system sounds interesting, and will be something I look into further. I appreciate your passion and candor. Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn! Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by warlockasylum on Apr 26, 2010 12:35:35 GMT -6
egodiabolus wrote: “I want to make clear my intentions with this thread before continuing onward. The Cult of Cthulhu draws from several sources; mainly Satanism, the Fourth Way, and the works of HP Lovecraft, though it is not limited to these sources and most certainly has its own methods. It is a mistake to infer a connection between the Cult of Cthulhu and the Simon Necronomicon or any other version of the Necronomicon based on the CoC's Lovecraft Mythos basis. As I continue to suggest, the Simon Necronomicon has very little to do with the Lovecraft Mythos, and therefore very little relevance to the Cult of Cthulhu. In the interest of Occult research, I am all for exploring the Simon Necronomicon, and I am open to the possibility that sufficient evidence would change my opinion.”That’s a very interesting statement. I have found many connections between the Simon Necronomicon and the works of Lovecraft. I am also wondering how could you draw this conclusion in a forum where you are trying to explore the Simon Necronomicon. If you haven’t completed your exploration process of the Tome, how is it that you can now assume it is not connected to Lovecraft. The other thing that I find interesting here is that I was taught directly by Fourth Way Initiates, and I have met a few who were around during the years that Gurdjieff was alive. I studied with the Fourth Way for ten years and the following two points were very clear amongst Fourth Way schools. 1) Is that as a Fourth Way student you were not allowed to study other teachings until you reached a certain level of understanding, which could take about ten years or more. A lot of this had to do with the fact that the Initiate would not be able to determine what was affecting their progression if they were mixing various systems up. 2) It was also emphasized that reading of books was useful if the individual was involved in the work only. It is heavily emphasized in Fourth Way though that you cannot follow a dead man’s teachings, since that person is not alive to give you an understanding on what they really meant. Fourth Way schools never encouraged or discouraged reading Gurdjieff material, and never revered Gurdjieff, but did promote and facilitate the exercises and work involved. Exploration into the Fourth Way is only from a work perspective and just the idea of drawing off of Fourth Way sources is actually an insult to the teachings of the school itself. 3) Anton Lavey used the Simon Necronomicon in his magical rituals. So how is it that you state that the Simon Necronomicon has no connection to the Coc? It sounds pretty idealistic to me. egodiabolus wrote: “The material Simon presents in all four books; The Necronomicon, the Necronomicon Spellbook, Dead Names, and Gates of the Necronomicon, never presents the material as initiatory, but rather as a complete system.”I wonder why you would state such a thing, for in the Prefatory Notes in the Simon Necronomicon’s Introduction we find the following: “After the chapter on Zonei, we come to the "Book of Entrance" which is really a system of self-initiation into the planetary spheres and may have something to do with the planetary arrangement of the steps of the ziggurats of Mesopotamia, which were seven storeyed mountains.”Isn’t a complete system one that includes initiatory work?!! egodiabolus wrote: “Furthermore, Simon does not suggest the need for instruction by someone more experienced. Simon presents the material for anyone who cares to explore it. Being lead by someone with more experience is always a good idea, but only if their experience can be substantiated and their expertise validated.”This is true and I must also people who believe that you can learn martial arts by just studying a book. After speaking with Simon, there are many things that are not revealed in books and this is true in all systems. If you are really sincere in researching a system it would make sense to ask those with experience what is meant by certain things and how does this work? It would make no sense for me to red a book on martial arts and then debate with a sensei about the art form. egodiabolus wrote: “In the Simon Necronomicon, under the section The Book of Entrance, pg.37:
"Know that thou must keep purified for the space of one moon for the Entrance to the first Step, one moon between the First and the Second Step, and again between the Second and Third, and so on in like manner. Thou must abstain from spilling thy seed in any manner for like period of time, but thou mayest worship at the Temple of ISHTAR, provided thou lose not thine Essence. And this is a great secret."
Show of hands, folks... if it is not saying "no sex", is it clearly saying "no ejaculation"? In the Army, we often referred to doing something meaningless or trivial as "masturbating without the satisfaction of getting off". I have heard the theory kicked around that a person can engage in sexual activity while preparing for this or other rituals without ejaculation (which for many would also mean without orgasm). I am not suggesting that abstinence is impossible, but definitely unnecessary in ritual work. Are you suggesting that this clear admonishment to refrain from ejaculation is a metaphor for something else?”This is a metaphor! I must say that if a person can stay celibate for the time of initiation it can be useful. It is also mentioned in the Simon Necronomicon the following: “BUT KNOW THAT INANNA TAKES HER OWN FOR HER OWN, AND THAT ONCE CHOSEN BY HER NO MAN MAY TAKE ANOTHER BRIDE.”This is a reference to worship at the Temple of ISHTAR.. One meaning that can be derived from this statement is that Inanna chooses who she would like to be a apart of the system. Another understanding of this passage is that during the time of self-initiation, one cannot work with other forms of divination, commonly known as intercourse with other deities, Many initiates during the process do have sexual relations during self-initiation, but at the point of orgasm focus upon Ishtar/Inanna. However, it entails the permission from Ishtar to engage in sexual activity but not too worship other deities outside the pantheon and may include sacrifices to Ishtar, which was done in ancient times. egodiabolus wrote: “ Again, what is being discussed is the Simon Necronomicon. Sticking to the material we are studying, we have to conclude that the "Conjuration of the Fire God" is a curse with an intent to do more than end another person's bad behavior. My statement was suggesting that the use of this curse to stop a neighbor from parking in a manner that inconvenienced others is over-kill, and that the intended effect of the curse was not what was evident in the results that Daera'La'Iyath attributed to its use.
It sounds like a very good curse, but a curse none the less.
The Simon Necronomicon may draw its sources from Ancient Mesopotamia, but the Cult of Cthulhu looks to the Mythos of HP Lovecraft. This goes to the purpose of this thread.”Why would you assume that this is a curse. See this is where the problem comes in at. You keep analyzing Eastern mystical traditions with a Western mindset and because of such you do not understand them. This is not to attack your intent on the subject, but just taking one line out of the book without having a knowledge of certain things doesn’t lead to anything conclusive, and you are not involved in the work, so there is little that you can understand about it. The Fire God was conjured in the manner that appears in the Simon Necronomicon as a way to banish negative influences from the work area. It is used as a form of protection. Francois Lernormant mentions this on page 186 0f his famous work Chaldean Magic, where it states the following in connection to the Fire God: “But this god was also recognized in the flame which burnt the domestic hearth, and protected the house against evil influences and demons; …This god who resided in the flame of the sacrifice and in that of the hearth was also the cosmic fire, distributed throughout nature, …and which shone in the stars. Regarded in this light, he was adored as the son of Ana, the heavens personified, and addressed, as “the god who rises high, the great chief who commands by the supreme powers of Ana,” and this was the reason why we have seen him struggling vainly to prevent the ravages made by the terrible Maskim throughout the economy of nature.”egodiabolus wrote: “Just to be clear, the lovespell mentioned on pg. 111 of the Simon Necronomicon is not mentioned in conjuction with ISHTAR. It is also the only lovespell mentioned in my copy of the text, published by Avon Books in 1980 (though this particular copy may be a later edition). What pages would I find the other two lovespells on?”Pages 110-111 state the following: “These things you will learn in the course of your journey, and it is not necessary to put it all down here, save for a few noble formulae concerning the works of the Sphere of LIBAT, of ISHTAR, the Queen.
These are Works of the gentle passions, which seek to engender affection between man and woman. And they may best be done in a Circle of white, the Priest being properly cleansed and in a clean robe.
Preliminary Purification Invocation
Bright One of the Heavens, wise ISHTAR Mistress of the Gods, whose "yes" is truly "yes" Proud One among the Gods, whose command is supreme Mistress of Heaven and of Earth, who rules in all places ISHTAR, at your Name all heads are bowed down I . . . son of . . . have bowed down before you May my body be purified like lapis lazuli! May my face be bright like alabaster! Like shining silver and reddish gold may I not be dull!
To Win the Love of a Woman
(chant the following three times over an apple or a pomegranate; give the fruit to the woman to drink of the juices, and she will surely come to you.) MUNUS SIGSIGGA AG BARA YE INNIN AGGISH XASHXUR GISHNU URMA SHAZIGA BARA YE ZIGASHUBBA NA AGSISHAMAZIGA NAMZA YE INNIN DURRE ESH AKKI UGU AGBA ANDAGUB!
To Recover Potency
(Tie thee knots in a harp string; entwine around both right and left hands, and chant the following incantation seven times, and potency will return.) LILLIK IM LINU USH KIRI LISHTAKSSIR ERPETUMMA TIKU LITTUK NI YISH LIBBI IA LU AMESH ID GINMESH ISHARI LU SAYAN SAYAMMI YE LA URRADA ULTU MUXXISHA!”I covered this on the blog page. You can this infor under these links: warlockasylum.wordpress.com/agga-sign-part-1/warlockasylum.wordpress.com/agga-sign-part-1/agga-sign-part-2-preliminary-purification-invocation/warlockasylum.wordpress.com/agga-sign-part-1/agga-sign-part-3-to-win-the-love-of-a-woman/warlockasylum.wordpress.com/agga-sign-part-1/yhe-agga-sign-part-4-to-recover-potency/egodiabolus wrote: “I cannot easily see how the Simon Necronomicon relates to the Fourth Way. What you can easily see you should also be able to easily explain. If you would, please quote a portion of the Simon Necronomicon that supports your suggestion, feeling free to illustrate those connections in as much detail as possible.”Interestingly, here is a link to a story written by a Fourth Way student in Ireland: www.katinkahesselink.net/sufi/gsstory.htmlShe states the following in her story concerning the Watcher: “He was getting to the point in his trance-state when what the Gobain Saoir called ‘the Watcher at the Gate Between the Worlds’ was about to emerge from the buried depths of his being.
This ‘watcher’ was a being who stayed wide awake and was aware of everything that happened in ‘the World of the Inside Hearing’ and ‘the World of the Outside Senses’….But suddenly, a kind of dream was put into his head – even though the ‘watcher’ in him was wide awake.”Uhmm, I wonder why a Fourth Way student can grasp the concept of the Watcher that is identical to Simon’s description of the Watcher that appears in the Simon Necronomicon and CoC admin can’t? Fourth Way teachings emphasizes the work on mind, body, and emotions all at the same time. This is also relative to the work presented in the Simon Necronomicon and is poetically illustrated in the Magan text: "Fearing defeat, summoned his Son MARDUK Summoned his Son The Son of Magick Told him the Secret Name (mind) The Secret Number (emotions) The Secret Shape (body)"Gurdjieff also taught that mankind was not born with a soul but must acquire one through his/her work. This is also illustrated in the poetic Magan text: “Know that our years are the years of War And our days are measured as battles And every hour is a Life Lost to the Outside Those from Without Have builded up charnel houses To nourish the fiends of TIAMAT And the Blood of the weakest here Is libation unto TIAMAT Queen of the Ghouls Wreaker of Pain And to invoke her The Red Water of Life Need be split on a stone The stone struck with a sword That hath slain eleven men Sacrifices to HUBUR So that the Strike ringeth out And call TIAMAT from Her slumber From her sleep in the Caverns Of the Earth.”The sword that has slain eleven men refer to the 11 spheres, from Kia to Anu mentioned in the book’s Introduction and also illustrate how one is to acquire a soul, where they are reborn. To further emphasize this and the connection between the Simon necronomicon and the works of Lovecraft, and Fourth Way School of thought. Here is an excerpt from the Atlantean Necronomicon: “Another aspect of LAMASHTU that appears in the Simon Necronomicon is that of ISHNIGARRAB. Simon gives us a subtle description of what ISHNIGARRAB really means in the Necronomicon’s Introduction, under the subheading SUMERIA, we read:
“There is a seeming reference to SHUB NIGGURATH in the NECRONOMICON, in the name of a Sumerian deity, the "Answerer of Prayers", called ISHNIGARRAB. The word "Shub" is to be found in the Sumerian language in reference to the Rite of Exorcism, one of which is called Nam Shub and means "the Throwing". It is, however, as yet unclear as to what the combination SHUB ISHNIGARRAB (SHUB NIGGURATH) might actually mean.”
Earlier, we discussed the Myth of ENKI and NINHURSAG, in the myth NINHURSAG healed ENKI by sitting him near her vagina and absorbing his “sickness” and then producing a beneficial deity as a result. We find similar aspects in the legend of Shub Niggurath. The gof'nn hupadgh Shub-Niggurath is the name given to the favored, once-human worshippers of Shub-Niggurath. When the deity deems a worshipper to be most worthy, a special ceremony is held, in which the Black Goat of the Woods swallows the initiate and then regurgitates the cultist as a transformed satyr-like being. The changed worshipper is endowed with immortal life. This aspect of Shub Niggurath finds its origin in the many aspects of Goddess LAMASHTU, such as the goddess Kadru.
In the mythologies of India, Kadru is described as being a mother of "a thousand powerful many-headed serpents, the chief amongst whom were Sesha, Vasuki and many other fierce and venomous serpents." Kadru was considered to be the mother of the nagas. Shub Niggurath is often described as “The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young.”
The goat was sacred to the Sumerian god Ningirsu. In some accounts, Ningirsu was said to be the son of ENLIL and a holy she-goat. Interestingly, Ningirsu is another form of Ninurta, which means Lord of the Earth, or Plough. In older transliteration the name is rendered Ninib (Adar) and in early mythologies, he was sometimes portrayed as a solar deity. Ninurta was depicted as a farmer and a healing god who releases humans from sickness and the power of “evil spirits,” on the other he is the god of the South Wind as the son of ENLIL. It is here that we find a deeper meaning to the Mad Arab’s words that appear in the Book of Entrance:
“For this reason, few have ever opened the Gate of ADAR, and spoken to the Horned One who resideth there and giveth all manner of wisdom regarding the operations of necromancy, and of the spells that hasten unto death.”
Adar is another form of Ningirsu. He is also the last Gate that the candidate Walks during the process of self-initiation. Saturn is the planetary correspondence of Adar/Ninib. It is at this Gate (7th) that the Initiate is transformed and enters the rites of the Black Goat, or the “Horned One.” Once the Initiate has passed this Gate, he/she is swallowed up by the “goat” and then regurgitated into a new being and is able to grow in strength.
The Mad Arab continues in the Book of Entrance:
“For this reason, few have ever opened the Gate of ADAR, and spoken to the Horned One who resideth there and giveth all manner of wisdom regarding the operations of necromancy, and of the spells that hasten unto death. Only when thou hast shown thy power over the Maskim and the Rabishu, mayest thou venture forth to the Land of the IGIGI, and for that reason was this Covenant made, that none shall safely Walk through the sunken valleys of the Dead before having ascended to MARDUK, nor shall they breach the Gates that lie beyond ADAR until they have seen the Signs of the Mad God and felt the fury of the hellish Queen.”
The Mad Arab himself went through such a transformation. He reveals this in the Necronomicon. Notice what he states in the Book of Calling:
“Know, seventhly, of the Things thou art to expect in the commission of this Most sacred Magick. Study the symbols well, and do not be afraid of any awful spectre that shall invade thine operation, or haunt thine habitat by day or by night. Only charge them with them the words of the Covenant and they will do as you ask, of thou be strong. And if thou performest these operations often, thou shalt see things becoming dark; and the Wanderers in their Spheres shall no more be seen by thee; and the Stars in their places will lose their Light, and the Moon, NANNA, by whom thou also workest, shall become black and extinguished, ..AND ARATAGAR SHALL BE NO MORE, AND THE EARTH SHALL ABIDE NOT…And around thee shall appear the Flame, like Lightning flashing in all directions, and all things will appear amid thunders, and from the Cavities of the Earth will leap forth the ANNUNNAKI, Dog-Faced, and thou shalt bring them down.”
The above words refer to the process of becoming immortal. The Mad Arab speaks heavily about the light of planets, stars, and spheres, being no more. This represents that the Initiate’s destiny is no longer held by the planetary spheres, also known as the ‘Dog-Faced ANNUNAKI.’ (Earlier in our discussion, it was clearly illustrated that in the Necronomicon Tradition, initiation requires the candidate to Walk through the Spheres in a pattern that is opposite the Sun’s journey through the same constellations. Since the Initiate is traveling in a converse direction, he/she has to reconcile with the “shadow-side” of these planetary forces, as in the Seven Anunnaki.) The Mad Arab’s final words indicate that he passed his initiation into the deeper “Qliphotic Mysteries.” Notice the concluding words of his Second Testimony:
“The Stars grow dim in their places, and the Moon pales before me, as though a Veil were blown across its flame. Dog-faces demons approach the circumference of my sanctuary. Strange lines appear carved on my door and walls, and the light from the Windows grows increasing dim.”
Another interesting feature of the Mad Arab can be found in the Enochian definition of his name:
Enochian English Meaning Mad God or Your God Ar That Ab Daughter of Light
From the above Enochian translation, we can easily see that the term Mad Arab means Your God that Daughter of Light. This would seem to indicate that the Mad Arab was a Priest of LAMASHTU. LAMASHTU’s first name is ‘daughter of ANU (light). The Crown of ANU, as described in the Simon Necronomicon represents the “daughter of ANU.” On page 78 of the Simon Necronomicon, the Crown of ANU is described as being of a ‘spotless white color.’ The sister sorority of the Freemasons, The Order of the Eastern Star, also wear white fez, denoting the anointment of male menstrual blood, known as semen, upon their heads. The other reference concerning the Crown of ANU is found on page 100, where it states that the ‘Crown may be made of beaten copper.’ This is seen today amongst the Freemasons who wear a fez of a blood-red color, symbolizing the menstrual blood of a woman upon their head.
There are no banishings in the Simon Necronomicon for LAMASHTU. The Mad Arab affirms that he is a servant of LAMASHTU, in the opening words of the Simon Necronomicon: “I have seen One Thousand-and-One Moons and surely this is enough for the span of a man’s life, though it is said the Prophets lived much longer.”
Later, in his First Testimony he writes:
“But now, after One Thousand-and-One moons of the journey, The maskim nip at my heels, the Rabishu pull at my hair.” The Mad Arab mentions “One Thousand-and-One moons of the journey,” which clearly indicates that he counted his journey as his life. These One Thousand-and-One Moons represent the Black Goat with a Thousand Young in Lovecraftian lore. If we add the “Black Goat” plus the “Thousand Young,” we would get 1,001 spirits. It is here that we find the meaning of the Mad Arab’s words as they are written in the Book of Calling:“In the Ceremonies of Calling, any type of Spirit may be summoned and detained until It has answered your questions or provided you with whatever you desire. The Spirits of the Dead may be invoked. The Spirits of the Unborn may be invoked. The Spirits of the Seven Spheres may be invoked. The Spirits of the Flame may be invoked. In all, there may be One Thousand-and-One Spirits that are of principal importance,..”This not only confirms that the Simon Necronomicon is a book dedicated to the worship of the Ancient Ones, but it also reveals that LAMASHTU, the menstruating goddess, is the power behind the tome. Now let us look at another aspect of LAMASHTU that will reveal a deeper understanding of her rites.” egodiabolus wrote: “Again, you assume much. I am not questioning anyone's experiences. Like any other process, to validate that process it must demonstrate a measurable change and must follow a manner that is demonstrable and repeatable by others. Your system may have those qualities, but it continues to be a system that uses the material within the Simon Necronomicon in a manner and context not described by its author. There is nothing inherently wrong with this; our own system is only based on the work of others and stretches beyond it. This thread questions the validity or invalidity of the Simon Necronomicon, not the system you may have developed in relation to that text. It is beginning to appear that this "tradition" or "system" to which you are an adherent is what you may feel is in question. I am sticking to the stated purpose of this thread and the text of the Simon Necronomicon.”Thank you for clarifying this aspect. Enjoy your day! “
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Post by I AM the Way on Apr 26, 2010 14:22:55 GMT -6
Really? That's a fundamental process in the Cthulhu Cult... questioning all things, up to and including, the experiences of others.
Did you/he mean me, Venger Satanis, or the satanic stripper on youtube, Venus Satanas? It makes a difference.
If one reads the fiction of H.P. Lovecraft and then reads the Simon Necronomicon, then I believe the distinction is clear. The two are completely separate except for the use of Lovecraftian names and the practice of magic.
According to some. To me, however, that scenario seems tantamount to cloistering oneself away in a monastery for years before the system of teaching bears fruit. The strength of The Work rests upon it's effectiveness in the real world. How can one live in the world without using or being exposed to alternative systems? That doesn't make sense to me.
I would never assist someone with their exercise regimen by only having them try this certain supplement alone for a decade before experimenting with additional supplements or training techniques or even nutritional requirements. Individuals should have the intuition, observation, and drive to gauge their own progress. I prefer to foster an open exploration of Fourth Way ideas along with other paths which have similar methodologies and goals.[/color]
You are correct, texts provide a useful background, but only go so far. I am the Cult's 4th Way Master. I provide the conscious, organic tools for Cultists to understand The Work. The Cthulhu Cult is a school, and like everything else around us such as technology, society, culture, communication, and economics, there are new ways of doing things. We respect the past, but our religion is not a historical re-enactment. It is the future evolution of all mankind.
If I were to list a hierarchy of influences for the Cthulhu Cult, it would look something like this.
1. H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos (most influential).
2. The Fourth Way as taught by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky.
3. Satanism, LaVey, Temple of Set, and similar LHP groups.
4. Chaos Magic, Crowley's Thelema, Buddhism, Gnosticism, Thomas Ligotti, The Holographic Universe, etc.
5. Necronomicon works by Simon, Tyson, Giger, etc. Alchemy, Heremeticism, Voodoo/Hoodoo.
6. Christianity, conspiracy theories, science fiction and horror movies.
And, of course, every influence is filtered through me because I Am The Way. A lot of people chafe at such an idea, but that's just how it is.
As for the Simon Necronomicon in specific, I have no doubt that many find it useful. However, I am also doubtless that such people would find equal use in similar magical tomes. The power doesn't lie within any book but within the magician.
Ia Ia Cthulhu fhtagn,
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by warlockasylum on Apr 26, 2010 15:11:33 GMT -6
I agree with you that the power does not lie within the book but in the work and the Initiate's use of it. That is probably the best point I have read in this posting that CoC Admin has to offer thus far. I think this discussion summarizes the CoC agenda overall: danharms.wordpress.com/2007/01/03/cult-of-cthulhu-bible-review/My work with the Simon Necronomicon is not a historical re-enactment of the past either, but when you understand the work, you will come to understand that it is appropriate for all times and seasons, sine the same stellar principles affect reality today as they did thousands of years ago. I see that you have the Simon Necronomicon listed as the 3th influence for your Order, or Cult. I am sure you are aware of the importance of the number 5. Yes I studied Fourth Way material for about ten years and that was the approach of that school of thought. Of course, life is what is the testing grounds for validating a set of teachings. I agree totally, but sense you feel you can just undermine the way Gurdjieff and his associates were instructed and then later say that you are incorporating influences from the same school of thought that you are evidently undermining if that works for you then whatever, and to think. I was considering joining CoC, but now I see otherwise since you are so bent , or thrreatened by the fact that there are people who enjoy great benefits from the Simon Necronomicon without having a man implying that they are the "Way" to my salvation. "If one reads the fiction of H.P. Lovecraft and then reads the Simon Necronomicon, then I believe the distinction is clear. The two are completely separate except for the use of Lovecraftian names and the practice of magic."Nice idea and statement but you have given us no validated evidence for anyone here on this message board in support of your conclusion. "Really? That's a fundamental process in the Cthulhu Cult... questioning all things, up to and including, the experiences of others."Questioning all things is good. And what may be the experience of others may not be for some. Therefore, it is time that the CoC begin questioning you and what makes you the "master" of the CoC. I think that should be given some attention as well. Did you/he mean me, Venger Satanis, or the satanic stripper on youtube, Venus Satanas? It makes a differenceI was referring to Venus Santanas, although at times I see no difference between you and her. See it's sarcastic statemnts like this that make my board readers wonder how much Fourth Way thought you are teaching your flock, since the definition of "negatice emotions" is clearly understood by those in the work, with or without the green slime.
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Post by beastx on Apr 26, 2010 18:16:01 GMT -6
I agree with you that the power does not lie within the book but in the work and the Initiate's use of it. That is probably the best point I have read in this posting that CoC Admin has to offer thus far. I think this discussion summarizes the CoC agenda overall: danharms.wordpress.com/2007/01/03/cult-of-cthulhu-bible-review/My work with the Simon Necronomicon is not a historical re-enactment of the past either, but when you understand the work, you will come to understand that it is appropriate for all times and seasons, sine the same stellar principles affect reality today as they did thousands of years ago. I see that you have the Simon Necronomicon listed as the 3th influence for your Order, or Cult. I am sure you are aware of the importance of the number 5. Yes I studied Fourth Way material for about ten years and that was the approach of that school of thought. Of course, life is what is the testing grounds for validating a set of teachings. I agree totally, but sense you feel you can just undermine the way Gurdjieff and his associates were instructed and then later say that you are incorporating influences from the same school of thought that you are evidently undermining if that works for you then whatever, and to think. I was considering joining CoC, but now I see otherwise since you are so bent , or thrreatened by the fact that there are people who enjoy great benefits from the Simon Necronomicon without having a man implying that they are the "Way" to my salvation. "If one reads the fiction of H.P. Lovecraft and then reads the Simon Necronomicon, then I believe the distinction is clear. The two are completely separate except for the use of Lovecraftian names and the practice of magic."Nice idea and statement but you have given us no validated evidence for anyone here on this message board in support of your conclusion. "Really? That's a fundamental process in the Cthulhu Cult... questioning all things, up to and including, the experiences of others."Questioning all things is good. And what may be the experience of others may not be for some. Therefore, it is time that the CoC begin questioning you and what makes you the "master" of the CoC. I think that should be given some attention as well. Did you/he mean me, Venger Satanis, or the satanic stripper on youtube, Venus Satanas? It makes a differenceI was referring to Venus Santanas, although at times I see no difference between you and her. See it's sarcastic statemnts like this that make my board readers wonder how much Fourth Way thought you are teaching your flock, since the definition of "negatice emotions" is clearly understood by those in the work, with or without the green slime. Good Sir,
I am quite familiar with your website and the work contained with in. I'm disappointed to see these post from you. I thought for sure someone with such a high intelligence level would not make such vast assumptions and be so very thin skinned. I wonder really do you think those among this forum would not see past a childish attempt to smear High Priest Satanis by throwing out the "Dan Harn" card? It's old news and really a trivial fact anyway. Further do you truly believe anyone here is knocking you directly? It started as a healthy exploration of the benefits of the book in its contrast to our paradigm.
Still I see you are short on proof and instead of saying "I have no evidence to support it". You get upset and attack. This is one example which indicates to those reading, that you aren't the master of yourself. See none of us have personally attacked you yet and won't. Here your opinions are valid and all discussion seeks betterment. We embrace your paradigm as being beneficial to you, Priest of R'lyeh Ego was getting at a specific point. So re-read it!
I hope the intelligent man, whose writings set on that website, returns to this forum.
BX
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Post by nixx on Apr 26, 2010 22:03:50 GMT -6
To Priest of Ry'leh Ego Diabolus: You have made some very compelling points during this thread & they have provoked a great deal of thought on my part. One point I must disagree with, however, is the literal approach you are taking to the Simon work. If metaphor must be dismissed, then any validity held by any occult system must be dismissed as all, without question, are steeped with symbolism & metaphor. This should be abundantly clear to you seeing as how you wrote a book on working with the Tarot which in itself is a system containing a extreme amount of symbolism & is in no way to be taken literally based on the imagery.
On the example you brought up on the ZIKU sigil, I stated clearly in that example & the other with my neighbor that I absolutely allowed for the element of sheer coincidence, but was merely stating that these coincidences happened in concert with my work with the Nec. I also cannot find any validity with your test group hypothesis because there is no way to control the conditions of said experiment in that each subject would be approaching the operation with their own set of personal & environmental circumstances that could vastly affect the experience for each & how the experience would play out to the point where it would make any findings utterly invalid.
I think, & this is my opinion, that if you wish to answer the question of the validity of the system & how it relates to the CoC, the best course would be to walk the Gates yourself & make your judgments based on your own experiences. Unlike many things in the physical world, occult science cannot be put on a convenient box & will not provide a universal experience for everyone. Not everyone is in the same place in their personal development & level of consciousness & any attempt to homogenize an experience is utterly futile; even in the physical world, no two people or life forms experience the same conditions in exactly the same way. There are always variables on the theme, so to speak.
Putting those kind of expectations on any system is equally futile as it is all in how the individual relates to the system that decides whether the system is valid for that individual or not. You yourself have made a similar point in one of the above posts on this thread.
As far as the work of the CoC having no connection to the work in the Simon Nec based simply on your inference that there is no connection between the Mythos & the Nec's Sumerian ingredients, I think Warlock Asylum gave some clear examples where there is in fact a connection between the two. I also stated in my first response that while this may have been added for no other reason than to sell books, there is some clear evidence to its validity & it could also be stated that Lovecraft himself drew from similar folkloric materials when he dreamed up the Mythos bases on these similarities. I don't understand why you are so quick to dismiss something that can only enrich the work we are all doing here in the CoC.
To continue, you stated that "The Fourth Way encourages Awakening through internal and self-guided processes; observation and remembrance. An external method, like a ritual from any resource such as the Necronomicon, may give us a glimpse of our potential, but cannot be relied upon as a method in the Work. Doing so would be akin to trying to achieve an Awakened state through the use of something like Salvia; you get a glimpse but are unable to really use it..."
I can argue this on two points. One there is a Hermetic axiom that states "the macrocosm is reflected in the microcosm & the microcosm is reflected in the macrocosm"; more commonly, this is summed up in the statement, "As above, so below". Any work we do relates not only to ourselves but to the reality we create with it. This point is amply demonstrated in Chaos Magick as well as Quantum science where it has been proven that matter responds to the expectations of the observer on a subatomic level. My second point being, a ritual, is a set of actions intended to produce a result. It is like entering a combination into a lock to get it to open; isn't this exactly what we are doing when applying the CoC techniques Master Satanis & the Fourth Way have given us to bring us to Awakening? Why is it not feasible that the same ends cannot be accomplished by different means. You may say each lock has its own unique combination, but the end result is the lock opens. We can debate the means to the end of existence, but the results speak for themselves.
To First Priest Xeno: I don't understand how you can make the statement that no proof of the statements made by Warlock Asylum has been offered as this thread states abundantly to the contrary. I also don't see where you get that there was any response made that could be construed as a personal attack; it is rather clear that Warlock Asylum was merely responding to Master Satanis' statements & raising his own very valid points. It further seems that, as you stated, "It started as a healthy exploration of the benefits of the book in its contrast to our paradigm..." that every bit of evidence presented that did not agree with the original statements made by Priest of Ry'leh Ego Diabolus , it was immediately shot down as irrelevant when it is in fact exactly what was being asked for in the original posting.
I mean absolutely no disrespect to you First Priest Xeno, Master Satanis, or Priest of Ry'leh Ego Diabolus. I, indeed, have the utmost respect for all of you or I would not be here. I will say that what I thought was a call to illustrate how the Simon system could work with & enrich our system ,as I have done in my own practices, seems to have degenerated into nothing more than the three leaders of our organization playing a game of "my system's better than yours & there's nothing anyone can say that will change our minds..."
If this is not the case, then I pass the same challenge on to you Master Satanis & you First Priest Xeno that I did to Priest of Ry'leh Ego Diabolus: Walk the Gates & draw your conclusions based on those experiences. How else will we know if the system is valid as it relates to the Cult of Cthulhu unless our leaders take up this charge. Questions are useless unless they lead to answers.
When the Stars are Right!
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Post by I AM the Way on Apr 27, 2010 0:21:47 GMT -6
I would welcome the diversion. Please... bring it.
Re-read my words. There was not a drop of sarcasm in my statement.
I've used the Simon Necronomicon. And I'm not saying that system is invalid. What I'm saying is that Gate Walking isn't any more or less valid than any other system which an individual finds emotionally, intellectually, and aesthetically pleasing.
Apparently, if my system embraces the Fourth Way and Lovecraft, then Warlock Asylum has implied that the Cthulhu Cult system is superior. And if anyone disagrees, then they should definitely feel free to pursue Gate Walking or something similar. I'm sure we'll survive somehow without participants and practitioners who find our paradigm lacking.
I don't think either myself or the Priests of R'lyeh were being anything but respectfully skeptical. And I'll be honest, I do feel some unwarranted hostility from Warlock Asylum. For me personally, it throws into question his credibility as both a 4th Way expert and knowledgeable, accomplished magician.
By His loathsome tentacles,
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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Post by warlockasylum on Apr 27, 2010 3:47:26 GMT -6
let me start off by sending my apologies to the CoC Administration. I must@state that I enjoy reading some of the information here and the members that I have met here are quite remarkavle people. I think I misunderstood you Vengis regarding the Venus Satanis statement, though I am still not clear why you mentioned her this far into the discussion. I have been busy with other work so I am delighted to discuss this subject at further length and maybe I am misunderstanding the intent of this post, so correct me if I am wrong. We all agree that books are useful tools in the work, but reading books is not the work itself. I state this because the initial post seems to take a simply logical approach to the Simon Necronomicon and if those who are in CoC Admin are not working with the Tome, then how can they come to a thorough examination. Here it is I have someone telling me that the Fire God conjuration is a curse and he doesn't even use the Tome. So when I see this sort of thinking involved in this discussion it contradicts the same principals you employ. Testing and validation require that the Priest use the information presented and then share compare with others and draw off of our personal experience. I must admit that I do find it a little annoying when we all can agree on the fact that books only present a synopsis but the knowledge, wisdom, and power must be acquired by the work the Initiate engages in. So now we have someone just picking out random passages from the Simon book and trying to interpret there meaning and is not involved in the practical application of the material, then we have a few other admin members join in with cliche wisdom, yet they do not have any trouble in all of this
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Post by egodiabolus on Apr 27, 2010 10:13:06 GMT -6
I started my morning this morning sitting on my balcony, enjoying the sunrise over some mocha while munching on an English muffin and jam, listening to Pink Floyd's "Division Bell". Not their best work, but mellow, suitable for this morning. This has nothing to do with this thread, other than this thread has gone where I did not intend for it to go. This is a discussion of ideas, and no one should need to apologize for their ideas. If we have reached that point, then something has gone wrong.
Part of this seems to deal with extremes. "Validating or Invalidating the Necronomicon". What I expected to happen was that we would develop a scale; with individuals providing their experiences and evidence as to why the Necronomicon is more valid or less valid to them. Clearly, my title of the thread, Valid or Invalid, lead people to think I was looking for one or the other; all or nothing. I thought I stated it clearly in later posts that I was not looking for all or nothing, that I was open to different ideas if evidence supported those ideas. I was and continue to be willing to have my mind changed. The topic remains open to discussion.
If the title mislead you, my bad.
I am not going to try to answer point-by-point the information that has been discussed here. I am going to offer my summary and some clarification on my views. If further discussion is merited, then lets have it.
It appears that the Simon Necronomicon has given rise to a system developed by its adherents. This system takes the Simon Necronomicon as an incomplete text (in that the reader needs to research outside the text for the material in the text to have practical value), much of it being metaphor, requiring the casual reader to infer a deeper meaning and look for their own definitions beyond the text. The book itself does not suggest this, but adherents to this system suggest that any person versed in how grimoires are written would understand that what the words say are not what the words mean, and that the text requires the student to go beyond it if it is to work. Furthermore, what it does in reality is not what it states, or even what is implied by those statements, again being metaphor for something else.
Metaphor seems to be a sticking point here, following the "all or nothing" direction this thread has strayed. As I have stated previously in this thread, metaphor has a purpose, and is a useful tool, but at some point we have to be able to say that X means X. There has to be a line where metaphor is abandoned and direct meaning is employed. It would be ill-advised to assume that every reader of the text should infer another meaning from words. We cannot be solipsists; we must account for the reader of the text bringing their own views and perspectives to it, no matter how limited those views may be. Thus, when the text states "do not spill your seed for the space of a moon", we must assume that the casual reader will take the words at face value, having no contact with your system or a more experienced adherent of the Necronomicon to point out that the words do not necessarily mean what they say.
It appears that what we have strayed upon is almost an Apologist's view of the Necronomicon. Christian Apologists defend their faith by offering alternative interpretations to the Biblical texts, either blunting the literal interpretation with loosely related information from elsewhere or demonstrating that what may have had a literal meaning at the time now has an allegorical or metaphorical meaning. Some will be open to the Apologist argument, others will not.
Another sticking point seems to be my suggesting that the "Conjuration of the God of Fire" is a curse. First, a curse is a spell that limits or destroys. You suggest I have a Western view of an Eastern concept (all or nothing). There is nothing wrong with a curse, it is as necessary as fangs in a serpent or claws on a tiger. It is a very good curse, which to me is a very good thing. I brought it up not to say, "Look, a curse! That is BAD!", but to show that in the example where it was used, it either was not as effective as the words of the curse suggest, or was not used as the casual reader might interpret it.
Back to metaphor on this point, will the casual reader read the words "burn the evil-doer" and expect the words to really mean "burn the evil from the evil-doer"? It seems a bit of a stretch. I am surprised that it is such an issue for this spell to be a curse. If it is a sword, embrace it as a sword! Don't shyly suggest that the sword is only intended for picking your teeth!
See, now that is a metaphor.
If we in the Cult of Cthulhu conclude that the Simon Necronomicon is less valid, or if I, one guy in the Cult of Cthulhu, come to that conclusion myself, what harm is there to you? I am a student of the Work, thus I try to be truthful about my perspective and self. My tendency would be to say that the Simon Necronomicon is not valid for me, or not as valid for me as it is for others. I would avoid saying that the Simon Necronomicon is invalid, unless I could prove that to be the case.
There are several instances in this thread where I have been asked to "see" connections or relations that I do not see, where these connections were not illustrated. I can appreciate that others can see those connections; they may be inferring connections intuitively whereas I am looking for something direct, thus I cannot see it. Or, the connections may be in my estimate tentative, whereas another sees those same connections as much stronger. All things have their level of association with all other things. For me, I have yet to see the strong connection between the Simon Necronomicon, the works of HP Lovecraft, and the Cult of Cthulhu. It appears to me that the Simon Necronomicon reaches for the relation to HP Lovecraft's works, and that there are elements within the Cult of Cthulhu that would like to reach for a connection between the Simon Necronomicon and the Cult of Cthulhu.
There is a connection, but it is indirect. It is the same connection that all Mythos fiction has, thus it has no great distinction from that body of work. Those Mythos themselves are inconsistent, but that inconsistency encourages our members to remember to define reality for themselves and not to trade one set of artificial standards for another. The Simon Necronomicon is another spice on the rack of what we would like to be a very good soup.
See, more metaphor.
Clearly, what we have here is a difference of opinion, with nothing really concrete to stand upon. Your system sounds interesting, and when I can get my girlfriend to abstain from my ejaculate for months at a time, I might consider pursuing it further, but for now I have to rely on the experience of others to light my way to understanding. I stand by my perspective that your system is distinct from the Simon Necronomicon, a healthy out-growth based upon it, but not the thing that a casual reader would come to on their own from a direct reading of the text. I admire the passion of your convictions and the depth of your knowledge, I just don't agree with you.
I am disappointed that this thread has been monopolized by just a few voices from the Cult of Cthulhu membership, when I know that the subject of the Simon Necronomicon holds a greater interest amongst them. C'mon, people, what is your take on this?
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
Ego Diabolus Priest of R'lyeh Cult of Cthulhu
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Post by I AM the Way on Apr 27, 2010 10:14:32 GMT -6
On behalf of the CoC Administration, I accept your apologies, Warlock Asylum.
My name is Venger. Six letters, two syllables. However, you must refer to me as High Priest Venger Satanis, Master Satanis, or Lord Satanis according to the new forum rules posted throughout these discussion boards.Logically, I feel duty-bound to mention that I also haven't thoroughly examined nor used this tome in my magical workings; and yet, I'm fine with my decision to not pursue it.Uploaded with ImageShack.usWhile I think any published Necronomicon has a greater chance of being a decent magician's prop than Kid Lawyer, hopefully my point has been made. Haha, seriously? Yeah, I think we can agree on that too. There are many things that could potentially annoy me, but I try not to let that cloud my judgment.
Ok, so now that we've agreed that the Simon Necronomicon and associated material is valid, I think I've had just about enough of this thread. Anyone who wants to keep talking about using that system should start a new thread.
Additionally, there's a lot more to discuss than just Simon's books and Gate Walking on this forum. Have at it, and oh yeah... welcome to the Cult of Cthulhu forum.
Awake!
Venger As'Nas Satanis Cult of Cthulhu High Priest
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